mozz

joined 2 years ago
[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 4 points 1 year ago

because he talk about Russia - Ukraine issue?

Is this what you perceive to be the issue I'm raising? Try again. Talking about the Russia - Ukraine "issue" is not what I was highlighting there. Want to take another stab at what I was highlighting about it?

That's like the opposite of everything democracy and freedom of speech stand for.

Innocent until proven guilty, and freedom of speech, and freedom for journalist and reporting is no longer relative.

Same question. What was the issue I was raising? Being a journalist and speaking freely, I'm obviously in favor of. So what was I pointing out when I highlighted those segments and made the connection I made?

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Do you consider US culpability in the Palestinian Genocide a part of this 'deliberate propaganda'?

No

At what point does someone protesting against democratic involvement and complacency in Israeli war crimes become someone who is protesting against democrats generally?

When they stop either conditioning their lack of support on Democratic behavior, or advocating for voting reform or some other strategy which can lead to effective replacement of the Democrats with something better. Either one of those sounds fine and sensible to me, but when they reach the point of saying, functionally, "well if the Democrats aren't doing what I want then I will let the Republicans win even if they are 10 times worse at the things I hold as priorities in the world," that to me stops making sense.

I think if you're a Palestinian who is still alive right now, and a protestor "on your behalf" enables Trump to come to power, and then Trump supports someone who kills you, the idea that the protestor was mad that the Democrats weren't doing enough for you before Trump and Netanyahu cooperated to kill you would be cold comfort. I think this whole "harm reduction isn't worth doing" idea is a childish and entitled reaction from someone who is safely far away from that harm that is very real to very real people in the real world, who have the luxury of poo pooing the entire idea of predicting outcomes in the real world and strategizing how to get them.

Is there any grey area that you're willing to acknowledge between these two categorical binaries you've proposed?

Yes, quite a substantial one.

Can there be a legitimate protest against the democrats, that hurts their odds at winning, but doesn't directly result in a change of policy?

Yes. If it's only hurting their odds of winning, and not even trying to change their policy, then it's suspect to me, but as you said there's quite a substantial grey area and it's not easy to tell ahead of time what protest might result in what outcome. You have to just kind of do what you can and hope that you've worked it out what is going to help the Palestinians and what is going to hurt them, and do the first and not the second as best as you can figure it out.

If the democrats and the protestors both refuse to bend to the other, is it categorically the protestors' fault if and when trump wins?

Not categorically, no. The Democrats have a lot of responsibility, the Republicans and Netanyahu obviously have quite a bit more. The protestors might have some responsibility, but depending on how they were protesting, potentially not much at all.

Honestly, I'm less concerned with assigning "blame" after the fact than I am with strategizing what I could do, or what someone else could do, to get better outcomes. Like I say, I consider this whole thing of it being real important "whose fault it is" when something horrifying happens to be an entitled mentality from someone who's not directly in danger. Mostly when people's families' lives are threatened they're more focused on "how can I keep them safe" than they are on "whose fault will it be if someone comes to power who kills them, and how can I make sure it won't be this person's fault but instead this other person's fault."

Even if it isn't apparent that they've lost explicitly because of those protestors? Is it also the fault of the protestors if the democrats adopt a pro-palestinian policy in response to the protestors, AND THEN lose?

So this brings up a really good point. To me, it makes a lot more sense to help the Palestinians by educating the American people about what's going on in Palestine, so the Democrats won't have to decide (to any degree) between enabling war crimes and losing the election.

A lot of protests right now are serving a double purpose -- one, they're bringing awareness to the issue with the American people (and it's working), and two, they're threatening the Democrats electorally and forcing them to change their calculus of what types of Israel policy they should do if they don't want to lose the election from the other direction (and that's working, too). Both of those are good things. I keep saying that, and you keep insisting for some reason that I must have a problem with them. I guess because it makes the point that you're trying to say easier if I am just against all protestors. As I keep saying, I am not.

What i'm gathering from you is that it is ALWAYS the protestors fault for the loss, no matter what the democrats do in response.

I don't care whose "fault" it is. I am talking about what actions are good (in terms of creating better outcomes in the future), and what actions are bad (in terms of getting people killed). Like I said, this emphasis on "fault" having any significant importance is the mindset of someone who isn't watching their family getting killed.

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 3 points 1 year ago

For reasons which I don’t really understand, news articles will pretty frequently have the official headline be this vague or incoherent thing that doesn’t communicate all that clearly what is contained within the article, but then somewhere above the fold if you click will be a collection of words which much more accurately describes the content. When that happens I usually title it with the more coherent set of words instead of the headline (as with this story).

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, people have forgotten what a fuckin apocalypse was happening as of like not that long ago

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 17 points 1 year ago

Mostly just posting some accurate information for context

I also am implying yes that the metric of “number of Americans who are looking for a new job regardless of whether or not they’re currently employed” is kinda bullshit

And by implication that posting this article in this particular way (with its implied incorrect meaning of “searching for a new job”) is likewise bullshit

“Unemployment” as a metric is actually bullshit also, for a couple different reasons, but this article I think is probably substantially worse

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)
[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sure, edited.

They didn’t change the headline; I had just felt like the subtitle made for a much more coherent headline on Lemmy. But if you prefer, I’m happy to put the site’s headline as the headline (and put the subtitle in the body text instead).

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I looked over his X profile.

It's not a war between Russia and Ukraine. It's a war between NATO and Russia, with Ukraine being used as a pawn, and Ukrainians paying the price of NATO expansion and antagonism.

Explosive.

Russia is now demanding that Europe pay for gas in rubles.

Europe gets 40% of its gas from Russia. That’s 200-800 million euros per day.

Putin is basically saying: you want to play sanctions? Either pay up in rubles or freeze.

Yeah, can’t imagine why the UK government would want to detain and ask him some questions right now at this one particular moment in time; not like something has happened recently that woke them up to the real world urgency of allowing Russia to put dangerous toxic bullshit into their social media landscape that might have made them want to take any actions about it.

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dude I love debating with fascists. You obviously can't let them dictate the terms, but it's a chance for great educational setups that are just weird if you come in from nowhere and start talking about them.

They say Biden caused inflation and everyone's suffering because of him and only him

You say actually that's not true, working class wages have actually been rising (even adjusted for pretty punishing inflation) and that happened specifically because of policies X, Y, Z, and you link to a chart of wage growth over different income levels which some people may not have been aware of

They say how dare you defend Biden when everyone knows he's killing Palestinians on purpose

You say that's a really good point, he did take the biggest action on climate change in history by a margin of almost ten times over

They say wait wait I was talking about Palestinians

You say hey you're right Trump did say he wanted to just kill them all, and Biden (for all his fuckin war criminal weapons shipments) is weirdly enough the most anti-Israeli president (in terms of action) the US has ever had. For as sad a statement as that is. He put sanctions on settlers, he paused weapons shipments, etc etc, people should be aware, I'm glad you brought it up

They say what the fuck are you talking about he never put sanctions on settlers, or he undid them, their eyes already filling with aggrieved "this isn't fair" tears

You link to an editorial from some Israeli minister about how bullshit is Biden's behavior and why his actions against Israel are absolutely criminal and we need to get rid of him. Probably no one reading the exchange will have been aware of that editorial.

And so on

It's a blast

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

It seems to depend a great deal on what you think the likely outcome of that protest is, and if your imagined calculus puts the protest on the wrong side of some imaginary line, suddenly those protestors are 'useful idiots' at best or 'bad-actors' at worst.

Yes. You have grasped it.

If someone's protesting with the most likely result being better outcomes for the Palestinian people (because of useful pressure on the Democratic party, or even better some longer-term reform to our broken system that leaves these as the only two options), then I'm in favor of it.

If someone's protesting in such a way that the most likely result is Trump winning the election and making things 10 times worse for the Palestinians, then I'm against it.

I have no idea why that would be weird or surprising, but yes. There's a little bit of overlap between those two goals, and it's impossible to know the future or the impact of any particular action definitively, but a lot of real-world situations are messy. Them's the breaks.

I describe as "useful idiots" people who are falling for deliberate propaganda which is being deployed to turn them unconditionally against the Democrats, alongside a lot of objectively false criticism, producing only a vague level of improvement to the Democrats' behavior but a strong result of making it more likely that Trump will win, yes. If you're not doing that them I'm fine with you. And I have no idea, as I said, how many (if any) of the DNC protestors will fall into that category in practice. I just know how I categorize people based on the outcomes they're promoting, and I know I see people in that "useful idiot" category on Lemmy. I don't think you're one of them, for the record; that's why I laid out some of the specific accounts I'd describe as more specifically promoting propaganda as opposed to good activism and tried to be specific about it.

Hope this all is helpful; glad we could clear it up.

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 8 points 1 year ago

It's highly likely to be Adam Back.

 

Think of a similar scope of change to a large codebase you're familiar with, for frame of reference.

 
 

Full disclosure: He does acknowledge that the most likely explanation is that it's not aliens.

"Misinterpretation is obviously the most boring on that list, which perhaps means it's the most likely to be the case. ... No one's ever actually put this stuff in a 10,000-Kelvin oven and measured how they absorb light. So the characteristic frequencies are theoretical, and it's quite possible that they are slightly wrong, and instead of seeing radioactive elements, we are instead seeing a far more mundane set of elements just behaving in an unexpected way."

 

I am 1,000% going to vote for the Democratic nominee in November, because I don't want the world to end. I just want to make that clear because I know some people may be rightly suspicious of this type of post, for oh you know the reasons.

But after reading this excellent Ezra Klein editorial and watching the better-than-excellent Jon Stewart show on the topic, I'm actually somewhat convinced that maybe another nominee would be better. Like Klein I think Biden's done a fantastic job so far. Just, someone else might do better in the election, and beating Trump in the election is pretty important.

So, what can I do? I'm about to vote in the Democratic primary, but his two primary challengers don't seem likely to spark victory either in the primary or the general. Voting for them seems unlikely to change anything. And I am nobody of importance to call up the DNC and tell them to put up another candidate.

So what can I do? Is there anyone else who feels this way?

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