TWeaK

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[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (14 children)

The problem I've presented isn't just "people", though, it's more "people will find a way to be unpredictable". Any system you throw at people, they will analyse it and try to find a way to defeat it. Even if you frame an ideal society, there will always be outliers who try to go against the grain and pursue their own interests, sometimes at the expense of others. Rather than trying to idealise everything and everyone, an effective system should recognise this human trait and attempt to account for it in such a way as to balance out or disinsentivize it.

If a bicycle breaks, the first step is to analyse the break, then to repair or replace the broken part. Sometimes it is more efficient to replace the whole bike, but in many cases that just isn't practical - outside of commercial consumerism, replacing things isn't practical in the vast majority of situations. Overall, it is better to focus efforts; rather than replacing the whole bike you just replace the parts that cannot be repaired. If the bike is designed and built well, rather than designed to be disposable, replacement parts will almost always be better than a whole new bike. I've had the same broom for the last 20 years.

If the bike was designed poorly, I would expect the bike shop owner to tell me I've bought a poorly designed bike, and to explain how other bikes were better designed and could better deal with the wear and tear I was experiencing.

However your analogy doesn't really fit. The issue here isn't the bike, it's how people are riding it. A racing bike has a certain configuration; a mountain bike has a different configuration; your average consumer bike has neither of these. Capitalism requires people to give a fair and honest value to things. Communism requires ultimately the same, but as defined by fewer people. Both of these are like selling a BMX to someone who wants to ride on the road or trails, rather than a halfpipe.

I don't think any system is unalterable. In fact, I would say that trying to advocate for comprehensive change is almost always a losing battle. You would not convince a mountain bike rider that they should do away with gears and ride a BMX. Rather, we should be taking the versatile mountain bike and make small changes to it to cover more different types of terrain, including that which BMX typically dominate.

However, if you really wanted to make a better BMX, you wouldn't scrap the BMX and start from scratch. You would make iterative improvements on one aspect of it until you found the sweet spot, then you would move to another area and focus on improving that.

That's what we need in society. Constant, iterative improvement, while simultaneously allowing for objective review of progress to ensure things are going in the right direction. Trying to flip things over all in one go really just gives opportunity for incumbant players to dictate the change such that they remain on top, then after the change the typical narrative is "Well, we've had one change, we can't be having another now, not so soon".

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (16 children)

You're simply saying vague things and trying to expand the language to sound clever and definitive. And yet, when I have asked you to define specific things, you have deflected.

I have defined the problem: people, not the social structure. I have described how the social structures we have implemented so far are inadequate solutions at addressing the problem; people figure out the structure and play it to their advantage. I have suggested that we need to keep the systems in flux - to shuffle them up - in order to mitigate people taking advantage. Furthermore I have said that this will direct us to better societal systems overall in the long run. New possibilities require ongoing change, on a fundamental, not brief and superficial level.

You have offered little to nothing in this conversation. You've taken pot shots, but they're firing further and further from the mark. You're positioning yourself against me, as if defeating me will be some kind of victory. I would much prefer it if you worked with me so we can both figure out the objective truth. I don't want you to say I'm wrong, I want you to prove what I'm saying is wrong, as if you succeed in that I'll know things better.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

She oversees the FBI, CIA and NSA - organisations that have frequently been found to be breaking the law. You can assume she's lying even when she isn't opening her mouth and you'll probably be right.

Her wikipedia page was created shortly after she assumed office. I can only imagine her entire online persona is heavily curated.

[tinfoil] I don't think the US engineered 9/11, but they most likely knew about it and allowed it to happen. Just like Netanyahu allowed the border to be staffed with a skeleton crew on the 50th anniversary of the 1st Yom Kippur war. [/tinfoil]

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (18 children)

Lmfao where did I say nuke them all? You're really trying it on now.

If you don't have anything significant to add to the discussion, if all you want to do is try and twist things into a "gotcha", then you should really just move on. You're only embarrassing yourself right now.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (20 children)

You seem to be trying to box me into some sort of scarecrow, so you can argue that instead, rather than actually reading and considering what I'm saying.

You have not presented any challenge here. You haven't even addressed any point that I've made. If it isn't people causing the problem, then what is it? What is the problem?

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 4 points 2 years ago

Voiceover =/= lyrics.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (6 children)

Most people in China do not eat cat meat

Most people in China do not think they eat cat meat.

Also, when you press ctrl+c on this page you get a bunch of extra crap copied..

Please credit and share this article with others using this link:https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/2682459/chinas-animal-lovers-fight-illegal-cat-meat-trade. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

Fucking slipping in zero days left right and centre, the scripts even prevent you from right clicking. This definitely a website to block 1st party scripts from.


Edit: In fairness, most people in the Western world don't think they eat horse meat. If anything could be learned from the Tesco scandal (and there certainly was no punishment) it's that the practice of substituting meat is widespread throughout the food industry. Turkey for chicken is one of my pet hates.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

Crossposted to lemmygrad? Oh wait, no.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It doesn't really stimulate economy, it just pays the people who own arms businesses.

Stimulating the economy involves giving money to people who have less, such that they can spend more. People who have an excess of money don't spend more, they just get better at hiding it away.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (22 children)

Denying the differences of systems, and asserting human behavior as inflexible and prescribed

That's not what I've said, at all. I didn't say any system wasn't different, I just said that none of them have addressed the real problem. Also, I in no way said that human behaviour is inflexible and prescribed; the point I'm making is that people are flexible, and that these systems do not adequately account for that ingenuity when it is applied maliciously.

Social structure directs values, opportunities, and relationships.

If anything, you are implying that human behaviour is prescribed here. I think it is more accurate to say that social structure influences people. It doesn't direct them, any more than a lone person with a stick can herd a sheep.

Shuffling up the system influences people to work harder when they grow complacent, and simultaneously gives those who have little a better chance to build something greater. It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the status quo, and encourages further change.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago

They trespassed, broke in, and stole property.

And yet, the prosecutors here explicitly dropped the charges for breaking and entering and theft. They only went for trespass.

This is because they successfully argued against the other crimes in other trials, and convinced juries that the animals weren't actually worth anything because they were dead or half dead.

The prosecution intentionally went for the weakest charge, then inflated it into a federal charge, and the judge intentionally didn't let them defend against it. That reeks of collusion, and a disgustingly biased judge.

The practice of slaughtering isn't at issue here. The issue is the welfare of the animals while they're alive.

this criminal isn’t innocent of any of the crimes he’s been found guilty of.

He did not plead innocent to the crime. He admitted to doing the thing that was a statutory offense. However, in fair court proceedings, you should be allowed to give "special reasons" - that is, you should be allowed to present to the court that it was necessary to cause a lesser harm in order to prevent a greater harm. If the court had considered this and ruled against him, that would be one thing, but they didn't even allow anyone to listen to that argument. That makes the ruling objectively wrong.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago (24 children)

Sure, but if we're constantly shuffling the deck, then won't more people get opportunity to be successful?

People blame a lot of problems on capitalism (or communism, or whatever), but really these are just neutral systems. The problem is people.

People are irrational and selfish. Once their core needs are met, their desire to want things becomes overriding - but they treat it like a need. We need to win, otherwise we feel bad and feel worthless, even if we're doing pretty ok objectively. Capitalism allows people to pursue these wins, but it doesn't do enough to curtail people after they win what they need, and then make them work harder for the things they want.

With capitalism, the big con is value exchange. You want to pay as little as possible, or at its core put in as little effort as possible, but at the same time you want to sell your output for as much as possible. So, in order to game the system, people lie about value. An employer pays their workers a pittance, but then sells their output as a luxury. A trader haggles down the sale price of what they buy, then inflates the price of what they sell. The price is never actually truly representative of work (which can ultimately be defined in time, ie 'man hours) but instead is controlled by what the buyer is willing to pay.

These systems aren't inherently wrong, they just assume that people will always play by certain rules. They don't account for people figuring out the rules and trying to beat them.

If the system resets every so often then this can help mitigate people gaming the system. It won't stop people from playing the game, but it will give new players a chance, while incumbants have to stop dragging their feet.

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