Quittenbrot

That doesn’t matter strategically.

Why wouldn't it?

It is not. The benefits come into effect even before the war itself.

The security benefits come into effect without/before Russia actually attacking.

Again: this isn't about Austria fighting a war. Can you understand that?

It is about gaining security benefits before a war breaks out.

Where is the gain if Ukraine also has it?

Ukraine is in the middle of a war. Austria wants these gains before Russia sends hundreds of thousands of troops across the border and massacres villages and bombs cities. Is that really so hard to understand?

There is no other threat for Austria.

I don't oppose that Russia is a threat to Austria. I oppose that the benefit of an Austrian NATO membership comes only in effect in case of a Russian attack on Austria. And I explained to you why.

I am not saying that Austria will be attacked by Russia, even though I kind of say it.

Don't try to make your argument mine. It is only you that tries to narrow this on an attack on Austria in order to disprove the necessity of an Austrian membership. I told you what the actual security gains for Austria can be in NATO and those are irrespective of a Russian attack on Austria. So are we finally done with this idea?

And btw, still curious:

Will you blame Russia for its crimes?

Nobody will blaim me for Russian crimes.

Will you blame Russia for its crimes?

The usual stuff does.

And yours? Is your view on NATO or Russia shaped by propaganda?

Where do you think all of this ends?

You stated out of the blue that NATO must be pressuring Austria. No proof, no connection to the article. I consider this a try to derail and to spin.

Besides that arguments should be convincing.

You offer no arguments. You're being disproven and your only answer is "yea, but still no". So it's irrelevant.

Guess what, the same will happen with Austria.

I very much hope the same won't happen to Austria. As it is only happening to Ukraine because we desperately try to save it from Russian destruction despite all the indescribable harm it is suffering since 2022. No country wants this to happen to them, no country will take the risk. This is why Austria wants this discussion. It is beyond me how anyone cannot understand this, although I'm coming to the conclusion that this is less a "can" problem but more a "want" problem.

If Nato commits crimes, Germany will be responsible, like we are after WW2.

Somehow, I have the feeling you don't see it as clear when it comes to Russia's crimes.

For Russia, I have to find their motivation because the propaganda I receive paints them as irrational monsters.

How does finding any "motivation" change your view on them waging a war of aggression? What is there to explain? What to excuse? Does it somehow alleviate them from their responsibility for their crimes?

Also, I have very strong doubts that the propaganda you receive paints Russia as the monsters.

Then better don’t go back to my initial comment. The entire point is the wrong justification..

You said: "The offence is that the media in general uses the Russian aggression to justify the reduction of civil rights." This is neither topic of this article nor of your initial comment. Stop moving the goalposts.

Nothing substantial.

Your personal assessment is irrelevant to the actual substantiality.

Ukraine is not part of Nato and already receives the information.

Ukraine is receiving this data, because it is actively attacked and we won't just stand there and let that happen. Also, given the circumstances, Ukraine is as embedded into NATO as possible and would love to be in NATO any minute. But I guess you're of course strongly opposed to this as well.

I take no direct offence

You find excuses/explanations for Russia's actions (war) but don't accept excuses/explanations for Austria's actions (NATO). Strange, isn't it?

The offence is that the media in general uses the Russian aggression to justify the reduction of civil rights.

Which is neither case nor topic here.

In this case there is no direct benefit so that the empty argument becomes visible.

I gave you a clear example for a benefit, hence this point is invalid.

You take more offense in Austria considering NATO than in Russia waging war.

Thanks for this honesty. You choose to be generous towards Russia that currently is busy destroying it's neighbouring country by military force, yet seem to be very upset about Austria wanting to discuss a possible future within NATO. How unmasking! :D

You try to tell me that the war Russia is waging, which forced them to switch to war economy, which forced them to mobilise, which forced them to recruit foreign fighters and weapons from countries such as North Korea or Iran, which has them deploy several hundred thousand soldiers and which has them experienced a six-figure sum of losses, is "comparatively small"?

Do you really?