Thank you for that comment. I feel like finally someone understood what I was trying to get across.
Probably formulated it badly, but still: the answers are a bit exhausting.
EDIT: Thought of another example of your qase where harming nature decreases value. Having to buy carbon certificates for releasing CO2 models the destruction of value by polluting the environment.
I think you've misunderstood what a model is.
I generally educate myself by reading, rather than watching YouTube. I'd prefer not to continue this conversation.
Thank youfor the ableist, condescending comment. /s
Pulling the antisemitism card gets you dogpiled on any predominantly liberal site I can think of
I see you haven't been in German forums.
Why the neutral language all of a sudden?
I was trying to be understood a bit better.
Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?
Not explicitally, but yeah: models aren't used for "objective truth". They're used to model (i.e. simplify) reality to make observations and guesses for the future.
Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP?
I feel like a lot of leftists think that understanding economics starts and ends with "capitalists exploit the labouring class", while not actually engaging with the subject matter. I guess most can't even explain LTV properly before getting mad at capitalists.
As I've written before: I agree with most conclusions of marxist analysis that I know and I probably don't even know half of them. But I think that political analysis should use LTV as a tool to understand the world and not the end of socio-economical disgussion (because that would ignore important parts of today's economy).
It really just seems like you disagree with the 'your stolen labor value' claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the 'labor theory of value'
I don't. I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.
(as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you've neglected to mention)
I don't disagree. I also don't disagree with the atomic model of Niels Bohr when it comes to calculating electron potential. When it comes to observing e.g. electron spin, that particular model will probably fall flat. That doesn't mean I "disagree" with the model, though.
My hunch is that you don't feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward 'labor' and 'value' definitions as a way of avoiding it.
I'm not too confident in my economic knowledge, true. But I am quite confident in how models should be used in soft sciences.
Addendum: I'd like to kindly ask you to give me a little bit of benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, I'll just disengage due to that accusatory tone I'm getting from you being a bit exhausting.
An LTV analysis begins with such workers because they are the original contributors of surplus value that is appropriated by the ownership class.
And what's that reasoning, if not based on ideology?
I really suggest watching unlearning egonomics video on the matter. I'm a leftist and mostly agree with Marx, but the LTV is a model and should be treated as such.
Doesn't that only take the economics of people into account that are close to this irreducible subsistence requirement?
I wouldn't have been able to write it this consise, but that's kind of one thing I wanted to point towards in my original comment.
It's an economic theory and therefore more to be understood as a model on how economics work.
The natural sciences have a hard core. The theory of gravity depends on how matter interacts in an objective, physical framework. Economic theories basically describe human interaction which are based on psychology and sociology. Therefore they depend on the societal context they are made in.
If you understand them as models that are tools on how to understand the world, they become more useful in political analysis (I know we are in a meme community here, but everything is politics and so on and so on...).
I do subscribe to many conclusions the labour theory of value and especially Marx came to. But I want y'all to remember that the theory is a mere tool for understanding and not a sacred, holy theory.
As far as I understand: Price tries to measure value. Therefore: A price needs a value, but value doesn't need price. They correlate but are not the same.
Were am I making the mistake? Genuine question.
There's not even academical consensus what value actually is, AFAIK. Do preasts add value to anything with their labour? If not: Do social counsellors? What if a priest acts as a counsellor? Ask different economists with their theories of value and you'll get several answers.
Economic theories aren't as rigid as theories from the natural sciences or mathematics. They are dependent on the culture in which they are perceived. A non-capitalist society would have different theories or value (or none at all) than we do.
This guy can explain it properly, I'm not an economist and kinda regret making that comment.
What problem?
This article shows the perspective of what it's lke being a jewish person who criticises Israel in Germany:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/13/germany-jewish-criticise-israel-tv-debate