OpenStars

joined 2 years ago
MODERATOR OF
[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 2 points 8 months ago

Oh I hear you. Back on Reddit, I was not liking the idea of joining a place made for and run by supporters of Russa, China, and North Korea (I mean, software is just code, but still...), so I was ALL ABOUT Kbin!:-) Ernst let himself down - and with good reason, due to his job and his family and his overall life - and thereby all of us, by not sharing his instance admin duties with anyone else who could take over. Especially when he announced that he was going to the hospital (and then did not respond to anyone for weeks afterwards), THAT is when the spam started, I noticed, from communities where the mods had abandonded them. The big waves did not happen until later, but I noticed earlier waves even then. That much at least might not the fault of Ernst, but it became his duty at that point to shut those communities down, and yet he refused (or was unable to, either way), and so the spammers had a field day with his negligence. (Also, to be honest, the mods abandoning it really was his fault as well - I myself could not log into the server for multiple WEEKS at a time, and when we did get in it was so slow as to be practically even if not wholly non-functional. Mods only abandoned an already sinking ship at that point. And yes it did rally back a bit, and then sunk again, repeating a few more times before it finally went down and just never came back up again.)

It actually serves as quite the lesson for us all. Too bad it is at Ernst's feet, but it is what it is - the guy was somewhat heroic I thought, for taking on the project of starting up an entire alternative codebase to Lemmy, and Mbin today is somewhat fantastic still! And yet... he was not perfect, nobody is:-|.

I am aware of quite a few examples of defederation - just go to any instance and search for that word and you'll see many:-). But I've never seen one that did not cite a very specific reason, that without researching further I thought at least naively sounded reasonable to me. Also I've actually caused an example of defederation: see my Petition to defederate from hexbear.net, which also offers several links to other petitions from instances that did the same quite awhile ago. Here's an interesting one from Beehaw to Lemmy.World and sh.itjust.works: https://beehaw.org/post/567170 (and then their response in return: https://sh.itjust.works/post/129725).

But yeah, Mastodon has been going stronger than Lemmy for longer iirc, and I've heard that it it plagued by defederations, so I definitely need to preemptively agree with you that defederations for no reason are bad. It might be like talking about divorce: always bad, yet other things are worse sometimes, so sometimes the least worst choice, while other times perhaps done too readily, and either way a very very serious issue that should be given the most serious of thought. I'm with you there.

I also agree that Kbin.social was not right-wing: on the other hand I can kinda understand that one better, having heard similar thoughts before. The USA as a whole is more right-oriented than e.g. the EU that is more left-oriented, so e.g. for myself inside the USA, Bernie Sanders seems quite the leftist compared to every other politician I've even heard of here, and yet compared to those in the EU he would be considered centrist or even right-wing. i.e., much like introvert vs. extrovert, the standard of comparison is relative to where someone is located at, currently.

Even so, why should one instance defederate from another instance purely due to personal preferences like that? (precisely as you said) Reasons to defederate that are fully valid, imho, are when one side is not engaging in good faith argumentation. Which I don't recall ever happening on Kbin.social. Therefore, the side defederating from it was likely to have been engaging not in good faith? So perhaps good for you to have gotten away from it then? (Though to be clear: conversely, the fact that Kbin.social later was sending out spam all across the fediverse is a perfect reason to defederate from it.)

The UX of the Fediverse is really quite poor, which is part of why so many are flocking to the likes of BlueSky even as they leave Reddit + X + Facebook, rather than Lemmy/Mbin/PieFed(/Sublinks?) + Mastodon + Friendica. A major part of the reason where Lemmy at least is concerned is the lack of cross-instance moderation ability, which severely hinders people who are not all lumped together onto one single giant instance (one Lemmy dev, Nutomic, put this onto the roadmap, but not until software version ~0.20, whereas the most recent version is currently only 0.19.7, so this won't be for perhaps another half to full year before that eventually gets added? especially considering delay also from after the sourcecode is released until it is installed, e.g. Lemmy.World that has literally ~80% of all Lemmings on it is still on 0.19.3, and they were outright EAGERLY awaiting 0.19.6)

A bit of a tangent: I wonder if the more Threaded conversation style, where you follow "topics" rather than "users", gives Lemmy the edge in terms of UX? Like, even if you cannot follow one person - although defederations seem more rare here in the first place - you will still get access to so much great content of a similar theme.

About your tangent regarding politics: I hear you, and I sympathize. If it helps, remember that (1) America is going through a REALLY rought time right now, like repeal of the 50-year-old protection to have abortions is literally a matter of life or death for a good half the population, and also (2) we are vulnerable to disinformation campaigns being waged against us from foreign powers as well as internally, and people are just like sheep, wanting to be lead, so the problem comes when someone arises who offers to do that but has a nefarious motive:-(. And yes, there are very many internet trolls who lack nuance entirely or in part - with those you cannot converse, you are right about that, and THOSE are good targets for defederation imho, not b/c of "politics" but b/c of "trolling", the former being a mere difference of opinion but the latter being the most important criteria there is on the internet: lack of good faith in discussions. :-)

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 3 points 8 months ago (6 children)

It's your choice, but note that you are welcome to remain as a mod either way, even with just your Lemmy.World account. As you say on a casual basis, you just won't get access to the reports that would help alert you to trouble spots identified already by people browsing the community. We now have 3 other mods all with Discuss.Online accounts so we're good, but could always use you chipping in when we haven't yet, again if you still wanted.

Matrix is a whole separate thing - it's like Discord. It too, like Lemmy, is entirely Free & Open Source Software, and the accounts and usage and everything is also free. It offers a "group"/channel style of communication rather than Lemmy's basis of topical "threads", which we all love but for the purpose of discussing mod activities the group method really is better. I just got it yesterday, and immediately I was able to access it both from a webpage and I downloaded an Android app (Element) as well. I like it! If you want, you could create a Matrix account, and optionally tie it into your Lemmy one by adding it to your Settings -> Matrix user, which adds a new button to Send Secure Message to your account Profile I believe. I don't see that button for myself for whatever reason, but supposedly Matrix and Lemmy go together very well.

In any case, nobody is asking you to give up your Lemmy.World account - I agree that would be far too much hassle! ๐Ÿ˜‚ Let us know what you want to do here? Casual mod + talk with us on Matrix, just the former, or nothing anymore?

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 3 points 8 months ago

Thank you so much for yourself and lazyguru (not tagging since he indicated a desire not to be involved in the discussion anymore) offering to clarify your vision on your instance. It definitely makes it easier for us all:-).

And I hope you feel better soon!

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 6 points 8 months ago

You are very welcome, and thank you for helping it grow!:-)

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 3 points 8 months ago (8 children)

Perfection!

@Anticorp@lemmy.world are you able to join that Matrix chat group? I signed up using the Element app fwiw (not that it matters to connect - any Matrix one will do - but just in case you needed a recommendation for choice of app:-).

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 3 points 8 months ago

Excellent! And added. We'll figure the rest out as we go:-).

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Again IANAL, but the legal notice does not look airtight, at least to me at a <1 minute glance. e.g. it points to the GDPR for usage by children, somehow defining those as age 16? That's an EU provision, and in the USA "children" is generally considered to be up to age 18. So I very much get the sense that the admins of DO are very much not wanting to push the legal boundaries of anything at all - which is what they both literally said as well in the discussion (which jgrim unlocked btw, if you wanted to respond to him).

So then with that in mind, I am not sure what language would be "necessary", beyond what they have already said? Also yours was very much a hypothetical and delivered entirely in good faith so I would have thought it would be fine? The worry I suppose would lie in someone else perhaps saying identical words, but NOT be delivering in good faith. At which point by the rules of the instance it would need to be removed. I do agree that in an ideal world it could be clarified - you can tell from my writing style that I am very much a detail-oriented person:-) - but on the other hand, in such matters it always seems to be the case that the more that is written, the more that people will hyper-focus on the boundary conditions and ignore the spirit of what was written?

"discovery, fun, & sharing" is fairly general, but if someone gets their comments or post removed b/c they said that murder is good, will they really be all that shocked? Especially keeping in mind that said person is extremely likely to have felt whatever they feel regardless of what rule had been cited or why. And like, rule #2 is literally "Be respectful. Everyone should feel welcome here." - but would a healthcare CEO feel comfortable here? That's the thing about being liberal, when people say that EVERYONE should feel comfortable, that truly does mean EVERYONE - the exception (requiring intolerance to such) being those who break the rules (i.e. who are themselves intolerant of such). I may not like someone's creed, gender, race, able-bodiedness, sexual preference, or nationality (+ in this case choice of career path), but I am bound to at least act in a tolerant manner of them regardless.

Mind you, I feel like it is obvious (though perhaps it is not) that we can say that when a CEO does actions that lead to the deaths of people, that such actions are not okay? And should be punishable in the usual way, as in via a court of law where he is entitled to a jury of his peers, the same as every other citizen would be? "Innocent until proven guilty (beyond a shadow of a doubt)" But that is so extremely obvious that why would anyone even bother saying that? I guess emotional venting? But while "he (the CEO) should himself be on trial for murder!" seems totally fine to me, as your phrasing implied "he should receive vigilante justice!" is not, b/c the former is obvious (if less so that he would actually receive that penalty) whereas the latter is flagrantly illegal, by design. Yeah it's a dance isn't it, but the former doesn't land anyone in jail whereas the latter literally might, plus as a matter of conscience I would not want to encourage thoughts that could eventually lead to such a horrific outcome, as in the breakdown of all law & order in the USA society where anyone could be gunned down at any time for any reason, just b/c the shooter felt that they had no legal recourses to vent their frustrations, or more likely that they did but that they did not want to bother going through the arduous process of proving guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt in an expensive legal courtroom (or arbitration) setting.

To help handle depressing topics it would indeed help to have another mod - fortunately we now have 3 additional ones, and AP even has a DO account, though refuses to be the top (and yet we would need a top mod with a DO account as we said earlier?). I wouldn't mind handing over "ownership" to m_f, although at this point with clarification from the admins that the most extreme topics as you were asking about aren't allowable in any case - at least, not on DO (it would have to go to some other instance if you wanted such, like midwest.social or perhaps something in the EU would work better for that?) - I am also convinced that I won't be hindering any conversations that would be helpful to have, like non-light-hearted but otherwise non-DO-rule-violating ones. So I removed that from the sidebar text, and am happy to help out that other team, if they'll help pick up especially that kind of slack. We'll shuffle the order if need be, but as that's a pain and only AP has a DO account so far, I don't even see the need to bother with that. Or if m_f wants to migrate the community elsewhere I'm supportive of that too, but that's an ongoing conversation nowhere near finalized yet.

Anyway, you can respond now to the post in Discuss, if you want to suggest any particular language for jgrims to use? Though despite how the USA allows "free speech", DO itself is limiting that to be for "discovery, fun, & sharing" and to "Be respectful. Everyone should feel welcome here.", which seems to me (naively, not having researched this topic in the slightest!:-P) to be even more narrow than legal notices about "hate speech"?

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 2 points 8 months ago (5 children)
  1. congratulations, you are now a mod:-) You won't be able to view mod reports though (until ~0.20 of the Lemmy software, as Nutomic put it onto the roadmap for that version) unless you create an account on this instance. If you want to do that - I highly recommend it - you'll need to make a comment or post, then click the 3 ellipses and add yourself as a mod, or reply to me here with the new account and I'm happy to do it. We should also figure out how to communicate - I mentioned here that we could create a Matrix (I just created an account on element.io) room somewhere? (but haven't done so yet)

  2. the 2 admins of Discuss.Online have since clarified on this post, especially this comment that the more extreme types of stuff that Blaze was asking for - like whether it is allowed to say that UE healthcare CEOs should be killed (morally speaking) - are explicitly not allowed on this instance. I get that there's a need to talk about and vent this kind of emotional processing, but that cannot happen here, entirely separately from whether it should be allowed anywhere or my own desire to avoid too much stress in my life:-). So if you likewise were wanting that, we could look into migrating the community elsewhere? But I think it would be problematic no matter where it is located, and I think there's a LOT of value to having an AskUSA that doesn't delve into such controversial topic material? So with the help of you and the 2 other mods, I wouldn't mind staying in that case, b/c we've have sufficient support to handle anything that came our way, so long as we continued to uphold the rules of Discuss.Online to keep things friendly (if no longer necessarily always remaining light-hearted). BTW I initially thought about creating an AskUSA on midwest.social, but completely aside from the controversy surrounding the main admin there (which regardless of your thoughts on the subject, would lower the traffic as some people have apparently decided to boycott that instance), the name of it being "midwest" makes it more regional, as opposed to Discuss.Online's being much more open to so many more people (including outside the USA, but more relevantly here also including everyone from any particular region inside of it). Although then it will have to avoid such topics as whether or not it is okay for people to laud the CEO's murder. But do feel free to let me know any thoughts you may have, if you want to create another community or for us all to help mod this one, or whatever?

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 2 points 8 months ago

Done! If you ever want it readded (and need help with that I guess) let me know and I'm happy to.

No worries - I had similar thoughts about the cross instance federation of reports, perhaps bc people seemed to be complaining about it less than the past, but probably people simply got tired of saying it all the time:-D. Or more likely it seems to be that modding itself is so problematic in general that it is merely one of the many bad things about doing that activity.:-( I guess I'll find out!:-)

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 1 points 8 months ago (10 children)

Thanks for the advice on best practices!:-)

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Lemmy.World (LW) is a nice place: ~80% of the entire Fediverse is there, and it has some of the best communities and least trouble connecting with those communities of all instances.

On the other hand, using LW goes against the entire spirit of decentralization that is one of the primary hallmarks of the Fediverse. So I definitely agree that you may want to explore some additional options. If you are adamant about being defederated from nothing, some instances to look at include Lemm.ee (the #3 largest instance after LW and lemmynsfw.com, see https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list for more, and for best results sort by Active Users) or lemmy.today. The #4 instance sh.itjust.works is also quite nice I hear. #6 Hexbear.net is a troll instance and while #5 lemmy.ml pretends to be leftist it is actually tankie (I hate that term as it is pejorative, but they really truly do deny that the Tiananmen Square massacre actually happened, as in that anyone actually died in it, so it does fit). You may want to find a regional instance, like Discuss.Online is in the USA, or a language one like feddit.org is a German/English mix, or a themed one like Lemmy.zip is for "tech, PCs, and gaming". Pay attention to the uptime stats, that's an important one for me. Maybe for an app that can grab content in a manner that doesn't always have to be live it could be less so?

Btw in the future, while I have never heard of that app name, in the webpage UI you can go to Settings -> Import/Export Settings "Import and export your account settings as JSON". Choose Export, and then wherever you want to set up a new (perhaps an Alt?) account choose Import and give it that file. Messages sent to your old account will not follow you, i.e. there is no way to set up forwarding yet, but at least your community subscriptions and block lists will be transferred. Even if you have to do this once from the web UI, this will definitely affect whatever app you use after that.:-)

Oh wow this is a lot. I should have just made a post about this - maybe I will!?:-P

[โ€“] OpenStars@discuss.online 1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

On the off chance that you are not joking (or worse, trolling), that is very much the fault of Ernst, the Kbin.social instance admin, for having abandoned the instance that he created for months at a time and allowing spam to flood the entire Fediverse through that server. He had multiple extenuating circumstances, which he profusely apologized for, but aside from that I don't blame other instances from defederating with it in the slightest. I also still have an account there, and I too have not been able to access the website in about a year, and I too have blocked the entire instance, bc it was virtually the sole source of all of the spam that I was getting across all of Lemmy.

You can read more about it here: https://pawb.social/post/2658114 (original).

I did not downvote your comment here, but I will say please don't be so eager to spread misinformation on the Fediverse. I found the above link simply by clicking the circle button and searching for the phrase "Kbin.social", and I even confirmed that you are able to do so on your instance. Leaving the default sorting options in place, this was the 4th hit and the 1st one that immediately jumps out upon human inspection of the titles as being the most highly relevant.

You will do as you please ofc, and people will learn to ignore / block you as a result if necessary, and only very very rarely someone may attempt to correct you (at least in a gentle manner:-) as I'm trying to do here, and as I would have wanted done for me. But if you correct yourself before speaking, then others don't have to go to that trouble, and your words will carry more weight. I offer this as food for thought anyway.:-)

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