Sure. Ethically speaking, anyone who's not an act utilitarian will accept the "greater evil" in some circumstances, and if you don't, it leads to some absurd conclusions, like chopping up a healthy person to get organ transplants to save five. Another example would be, "If you don't kill someone for me, I'll kill two people." I can't prevent every bad thing from happening, but I can control my own actions and choose not to be a party to bad things.
Objection
joined 1 year ago
In the 1932 German Presidential Election, the candidates were Hitler, Hindenburg, and Thälmaan. The SPD endorsed "center-right" Hindenburg as a lesser evil to stop Hitler, and he won. Then he wound up appointing Hitler as chancellor anyway.
Because you haven’t demonstrated it to be a viable strategy…
Can you give examples of this tactic playing out favorably in the past?
Parties are always looking at how to attract or retain voters. It's very intuitive that if a significant number of people defect from a party, the party will be reconsidering the issue that caused the break. I don't think this needs to be proven.
Why am I not surprised you didn’t say “We’ll endorse the Democrats / Republicans if and only if they do X.”?
Why would I? Are you suggesting that trying to influence the Republicans to become an acceptable party is a viable strategy?
If the only thing that matters is escape, then the only thing that makes sense is choosing the scenario that’s most likely to allow for it.
...what? I thought your whole reason for caring about the "more comfortable fire to die in" is because escape was ruled out entirely.
If you think both of the only 2 possible outcomes are unacceptable, then acceptability is a moot point.
No, it isn't. Unacceptable means unacceptable.
The crux of the disagreement comes down to where you define the zero point. If the zero point is defined as doing nothing, then doing nothing is not helping anyone. If the zero point is voting democrat, then doing nothing is helping Trump. If the zero point if voting Trump, then doing nothing is helping Harris.
There is no logical reason why the zero point should be defined as voting for one candidate or the other. Therefore it is incorrect to say not voting for one candidate "helps" the other.
Again – no shot. Not in FPTP. You virtue signaling every 4 years has never and will never change that.
That is incorrect. Lets say the polls show, Green 15%, Democrat 40%, Republican 45%, and the Greens say, "We'll endorse the Democrats if and only if they do X." You have not addressed why this is not a viable strategy at all. Saying "no shot" doesn't make it true.
Yes you did. You agreed that that only Trump or Kamala will be president after this election. Don’t backtrack, there’s a reason I insisted on these answers.
That's not the same thing. You're conflating "being able to win this election" with "being able to ever change things." It's possible to change things without winning, and it's possible for future elections to be different. You're taking a much more limited claim and expanding it to a much larger one that I never agreed with.
Again, why would you not wail on the walls in the room with less fire? What an absurd stance…
If anything, it'd be better to wail on the walls in the room with more fire, to die quicker. But the point is that that doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is escape.
Again, you already agreed she is the better option of the only 2 outcomes that will happen. Don’t twist my words ;)
And as I already stated, "better" does not mean "acceptable." In the same way if you push a vegan into saying beef is better than pork, that doesn't mean they consider beef an acceptable food.
No, my criticism is on Biden bypassing congress to send weapons to Israel and Kamala saying that she supports continuing to send more weapons. Everything else is just responding to your bullshit allegations.
We will be stuck voting for the lesser evil until the end of time unless things change, and they cannot be changed if we don't try to change them.
I've explained myself in many different ways in this thread, but honestly, that's what it comes down to.
I don't live in a swing state regardless.
Sure. Obviously, the split on the left was unfortunate and a major reason why Hitler came to power. Another reason being the declining economic conditions under the governing coalition of the SPD with the center-right.
I don't really see how that makes the case for lesser-evilism.