Monomate

If Israel really wanted the destruction of all Gazans, they'd not send their soldiers to a prolonged war. They'd rather send their own missiles and everything would be destroyed in seconds. They have that capability, but they didn't use it. If it's really a genocide as you suggest, it's the dumbest one of all time, because they're risking their soldiers when they can attack safely and decisively from a distance.

If you were one of the parents/relatives of the kidnapped israelis, would you still think it was not worth it?

I know right? I've always thought calling it genocide a flagrant exxageration. When I think of genocide, it comes to mind images of some evil dictator using poison gas in a population, chemical weapons, an atomic bomb, etc.

To be a true genocide, it must be an indiscriminate elimination of the population of a nation or an ethnicity. It's not the case of Isreal, which is targeting specifically the militants of Hamas. Just because there are civilian colateral damage in the process does not make it a genocide automatically, because the civilians are not what the IDF is after. They're after Hamas militants. Gaza has a very high population density, and the Hamas militants don't use any uniform to differentiate them from the civilians. They do it on purpose to make the IDF hesitant, and get them by surprise. They hide themselves in buildings that they know the IDF would be hesitant to attack, like hospitals, schools and mosques. They play dirty, and then cry genocide when the IDF respond to their missiles sent to Israel's territory.

You just love to spread immense misinformation. You should actually educate yourself in this particular matter if you want to write and speak on the slogan. Don’t just blabber your personal opinion, give sources. Your personal opinion doesn’t matter, actual evidence does.

According to Wikipedia article for "From the river to the sea": "Many Palestinian activists have called it "a call for peace and equality" after decades of Israeli military rule over Palestinians while for Jews it is seen as a call for the "destruction" of Israel. Islamist militant faction Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel, and the removal or extermination of its Jewish population." So it's not as clear-cut as you suggested. It says some Palestinians define is as a call for peace, but even if it was taken as such in the past, nowadays I have the impression it's mosly used as a defense of the destruction of Isreal. If it was just for the peace of Palestine, they'd use a more specific sentence because the way it's pharsed it includes the Isreal territory in their intentions of "freedom". But they want to be free from what? Free from the Israeli people presence? The article you linked kind of confirm what the Wikipedia article said: each side has an interpretation of what this sentece entails, but I'm more interested in the practical usage of the sentence today, and in my opinion it's mostly anti-Isreal.

Not only that, do you know that Israel has made a slogan exactly like that too. So by your definition; Israel wants to exterminate all Palestinian people (and they’re currently doing so with the genocide).

From the same Wikipedia article: "The Palestinian phrase has also been used by Israeli politicians. The 1977 election manifesto of the right-wing Israeli Likud party said: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."" It seems a variation from "from the river to the sea" was used by a specific Isreali right-wing party in 1977. It was strictly a position of said party in 1977, so we cannot pin it on Isreal of 2024.

Israel flat out said they do NOT want a two state solution.

In the article you linked, this is an opinion of Isreali Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after he got spooked by what occured on October 7th. Who know's what the next Prime Minister will think about it? Israel was explicitly in favor of the Two State Solution in 1937 and 1947, but in both cases the Palestinians refused. Now that missiles are launched from Palestinian territory into Isreal, don't be surprised if Isreal takes a more conservative approach in the name of its national security.

Also explain to us; what is a Hamas flag? I have never heard about it nor seen one. I have only seen the Palestine flag. So tell us, show us and give us actual evidence with reliable sources.

Sure: Hamas Flag, Palestine Flag.

By the way, sorry for the late response. As I knew my responses would require the most extensive use of quoting, I decided to respond it last.

Your comments contradict one another. You say this here but your other comments give a whole different mindset.

The main idea I'm trying to express is that the IDF should practice restraint where possible. If the restraint is at the cost of raising the risk of their opperations, I'd not blame them if they don't restrain themselves as much as we, people that are safe and sound possibly in another continent, would think is reasonable.

This doesn’t matter much. Because Israel have bombed refugee camps where Hamas didn’t even went to. Israel is bombing anyone who’s a Palestinian, heck even journalists. The argument of “Hamas is using humans as shields” is an old excuse.

I'm not aware of all the movements of the IDF. When Isreal bombs any civilian building, they always claim it was being used as a Hamas hideout or a missile launching base. If there's civilians casualities, it's possible the Hamas forced them to remain there to act as human shield deterrent. If not, I see no reason for Isreal to waste their bombs on buildings where there's no terrorists hiding. For now there's no way to confirm things one way or another. If journalists died, we can't confirm at the moment the IDF targeted them specifically or if it's mere casuality of war (doing journlistic work in a war zone is risky, after all).

Would Israel bomb their own hospitals, schools, refugee camps and all that if Hamas was within Israel? (bet not).

In this case, I think it would e much easier to identify the Hamas terrorists when they're surrounded by people of another ethinicity, and when those people would gladly point out where's the terrorist instead of being coerced to cooperate with Hamas. So I think Israel would not bomb the hospital.

You see the old argument of “Hamas being destroyed” does not work at all. Israel killing innocent civilians creates more hatred against Israel as a whole. It means that anyone who’s a Palestinian and lost their entire land, home, friends, acquaintances and family will high likely join Hamas to get vengeance. Now, guess whose fault is for children joining Hamas after losing everything they ever cared for? Israel.

Even before the October 7th, Hamas was already fostering hatred for Israel in its population. The children were being indoctrinated from their school ages to hate Israel. Most humanitarian donations the Gazan government received from the UN and other countries they diverted for the construction of their tunnel system and missile launchers whenever possible. Contruction materials for building houses and schools were all used to build the tunnels they're using now to hide from the IDF. The pipes for pumbling were used for missile launchers. Instead of using the international aid to develop their community, they used it for terrorist purposes. At this point, capitulating for the Hamas' demands will not stop the hatred, because they were hateful long before October 7th. Israel saw that the only way to stop the future attacks is in a pragmatic way: destroying Hamas and its military e political capabilities, and making sure no future Gazan government shall have the military capability to attack Israel. How the're gonna do it? I don't know, but they're adamant in doing it.

36 000 innocent civilians is not collateral damage. Its purposefully murdering innocent Palestinian people, its genocide and all the evidence backs it up. It is not Hamas who’s bombing refugee camps, hospitals, schools, homes and any place that a Palestinian is. It is Israel. You’re good on pointing fingers but there’s zero factual evidence.

These numbers were provided by the Hamas, which have an incentive to inflate it so as to exert pressure on Israel's allies. I'm certain there's no way for anyone to provide an accurate body count of casualities in this war, as it is ongoing, and there's many bodies that might be under rubble. And as I said: it's a Hamas tactic to use their citizens as human shields whenever possible. When they brag about the number of casualities, deep down they like when there's more dead citizens, because for them it only represent necessary sacrifices for achieving one goal: pressure Israel allie's to make Isreal stop their military advancement, so the Hamas can regroup and resume their missile strikes against Isreal territory at full force. For them this is a holy war: they just hate Isreal and want it gone. If they make Isreal back down and agree to a indefinite ceasefire, it'll signal to the other enemies of Isreal (Hezbolah, Iran...) that they're soft, and will encourage them to attack Isreal as well. Isreal is a country that's surrounded by enemies that hate it, so they were forced to invest heavily in millitary defense systems, and make millitary conscription mandatory to both genders. Israel is the only democracy in a area brimming with autocracies and teocracies.

You do realize from the moment Israel become a state, Israel has never lived in actual peace? They stole the land, displaced 750 000, murdered thousands of people. Set fires to homes, good and everything else. Placed mines so Palestinians cannot return. This “war” didn’t start on 7 October 2023 neither somewhere in 2020. It started the moment Israel decided to murder and steal everything the Palestinian people owned. The ceasefire deal is a joke to begin with. 6 weeks ceasefire and then they’ll continue bombing the entirety of Gaza again. Its needs to be permanent. Israel has to be held accountable for their actions (genocide). Israel want 100% safety? Well, should not have stolen the land, displaced thousands of Palestinian people, murdering, Apartheid system, discrimination. And for everything I say here; I can link sources if you want. It’ll be tomorrow though, not on PC. But I will if you ask me to.

I'm not extremelly familiar to the history of Isreal, but I don't think it's fair the Isrealli citizens of today pay for supposed mistakes of their ancestors from 70+ years ago. A ceasefire now would only benefit the Hamas and let them regroup with more weapons and ammo, and build new milittary outposts. I defend a indefinite ceasefire, but after Hamas is destroyed, of course. This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people. It just proves they don't care for their people, they care for power. And if by apartheid system you mean border controls, so every country has such system because no serious country allows indiscriminate entry of foreigners in its borders without aplying some criteria first. And in Isreal, 20% of the population is of Arab descent and they enjoy full citizen status. Go ask them if they're unhappy with the "Israelli regime" and if they'd rather go move to the Gaza strip.

It has nothing to do with “easy to judge”. There’s lots and lots of evidence. Documents, videos, articles and even actual ex-IDF soldiers speaking out. IDF soldiers are always “happy to trigger their gun” since day one. Not just now. Certainly soldiers are humans to but these soldiers are killing innocent civilians. They’re smiling, joking, stealing everything from the Palestinians. They’re recording themselves. The videos are all over Instagram. They let children and other people signature their bombs with cruel words like “kill them all” which I can give a source for as well. There’s in no way defending their atrocities. No matter how bad you want to. Like I said, you’re an Israel-supporter and by your other comments in others thread, a possible Zionist. I already told you; Israel is the core reason as to why Hamas even exist.

If there's any misconduct among the IDF, of couse they should be called out and disciplined. I'm not saying it is a good thing to abuse vulnerable people during a war. But, let's be honest, in all wars this kind of stuff happen. A bunch of guys are there in the open, with no law enforcement to contain them, under a high stress situation for it is a war and they might die at any moment. Of course they might regress to erratic behaviors. Maybe it's fueled by rage for their people being attacked by Hamas? Maybe they're taking out it on the citizens? I don't know. I've never been a soldier to know.

I'd take this with a grain of salt because it's just the tale of one man. But if it's true, it's sad becuase it would represent the wheel of hatred turning.

This is just a conversation on the internet. We aren't here presenting an undergraduate thesis. I try to limit things to empirical evidence and appeal to common experiences between us so I don't have to make everyone read a huge wall of text. That's why I said we can just agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong about it. 👽

Both statements can coexist without any contradiction. If no numbers can be trusted (due to loggistical concerns I cited in my previous comment), how can Hammas be so sure of the numbers it gives to the press? Not only would Hammas' numbers be innacurate if they were acting in good faith, but they'd be outright fake in case of bad faith on their part (most likely scenario).

I don't want to make it seems I'm arguing my point. We can agree to disagree, of course. Especially if, for you to be trully satisfied with my answers, it would require me to go in person to those universities and do a field research. I don't even live in the USA. 😅

No, it's empirical evidence. It's a well known fact that western universities have a left-leaning bias. And by extension, a pro-Hamas and/or pro-Palestine bias. This one is supported by the 3 points in my previous comment.