oh thanks! that helps a lot, I wasn't thinking about the 132, and now it feels like obvious in hindsight.
Kolibri
joined 2 years ago
Thanks, and thanks for pointing towards Marx's Critique of the Gotha program. I had a question about that, If it's okay? Mainly just to see if I'm understanding right? In like the general/broad sense.
spoiler
What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.
Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values. Content and form are changed, because under the altered circumstances no one can give anything except his labor, and because, on the other hand, nothing can pass to the ownership of individuals, except individual means of consumption. But as far as the distribution of the latter among the individual producers is concerned, the same principle prevails as in the exchange of commodity equivalents: a given amount of labor in one form is exchanged for an equal amount of labor in another form.
so with what you said like with this part "we would likely still produce for exchange, but more equitably such that you only get out of it what you put into it in terms of labor", in a communist society, like with that part you said and with Marx quoted above. With commodities gone, instead like, a communist society is looking more at labor directly? there is still that exchange, like you and Marx says, but it's that content and form that been changed? or altered? So with that like one section above, someone would still have to do like I dunno a 40 hour shift, but they receive that same amount of labor back with like that "certificate" representing that same amount of labor or like, labor power used during that 40 hour shift? After those deductions Marx mentioned of course. Not only that, but as Marx points in that section, people will still be paid differently since people are different, and have different capabilities and abilities, and of course each form of labor is still different? and of course some people will work more, while others less? much like how it is in our capitalist mode of production
and with this all, there would be no commodities because like you said "It would abolish the commodity altogether, because private property would be abolished". And that generally due to like the means of production now being own in "common"? Under like the dictatorship of a proletariat or like a workers/people government right? Also like, abolishing private property will take time to wouldn't it? Since it can't happen just by a decree. And would slowly be abolished under that lower phase of communism/that transitional phase that is socialism?
and going back to like things being made. so if something was made in a communist society, its being made to satisfy that need in society and like that use-value? where as in a capitalist society, a thing is only made not just due to that use-value but mainly it's exchange-value and to increase the personal wealth of the capitalist, a commodity, and to take that surplus value for themselves. where as in a communist mode of production, not only when a thing is made, not only is it not a commodity because private property not a thing anymore, that exchange-value has changed in content and form like Marx said, and it is only that labor looked at into it?
and going back to like that workers/people government or dictatorship of the proletariat. That central planning would generally resolve to this part below from Marx, that I'm gonna quote. along with like managing the things above, Like the deductions or dealing with looking at the value of labor more directly? while also like trying to satisfying all the needs of society?
spoiler
In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! and with that. At first like people will still have to work like I dunno 40 hour shifts, but over time, that stuff will go down? From like 30 to 20 to whatever? And people are still gonna be like paid a wage, but over time, like that wage will also slowly go away to? or certificates or whatever that form will be? but like with what Marx's says here "all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly". In which, over times as things like the means of production are more developed, like with technology, there would be more to go around, and thus reducing things?like if less labor power was needed to make something, that would reduce that cost, and also reduce labor time put into it? along with like, maybe allowing for more of that things to be produced to? making more of that abundance
I hope I'm understanding Marx right.
and to add, that last part, these are some the goals of AES states like China, DPRK, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba, that they're working towards? along with past socialist states. To get to that higher phase of communism. In their own way due to their own material conditions? And to eventually make this part fully realized? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"
sorry, I hope I'm not being too much! Thanks for like, taking the time to respond and deal with me on here for past stuff.
thanks that kind of reassuring, since I am like extremely rusty with math
I think I understand? I have like trouble reading deeper into stuff. With what you said it seems like you flipped like the rate of surplus value to, to like find the rate of like necessary labor instead? meanwhile with Marx he does like the rate of surplus value or like degree of exploitation to. Just like, the math really confusing me a bit. I think I'm getting like too caught up on the math and like possibly missing Marx point. I'm just like, trying to better understand stuff. but like I can see what your saying to, esp. because in like an earlier part of section 1 in ch.9 there this part.
But in truth, the rate of surplus-value is not equal to s/C or s/(c+v), but to s/v: thus it is not 90/500 but 90/90 or 100%, which is more than five times the apparent degree of exploitation. Although, in the case we have supposed, we are ignorant of the actual length of the working-day, and of the duration in days or weeks of the labour-process, as also of the number of labourers employed, yet the rate of surplus-value s/v accurately discloses to us, by means of its equivalent expression, surplus-labour/necessary labour the relation between the two parts of the working-day. This relation is here one of equality, the rate being 100%. Hence, it is plain, the labourer, in our example, works one half of the day for himself, the other half for the capitalist.
The essential difference between the various economic forms of society, between, for instance, a society based on slave-labour, and one based on wage-labour, lies only in the mode in which this surplus-labour is in each case extracted from the actual producer, the labourer.
also with like this all, if like, they made 430 worth, wouldn't like. wouldn't it mean no surplus value was generated? since that would just be like the money forwarded initially? since it initially took 430 to put into this process. unless if that initial money was lower or like? I dunno I feel like more confused now
I think that helped, thanks, esp. viewing it from like that M --> C --> P --> C' --> M' angle. I mainly got like really tripped up when Marx started to go into the math of this stuff, like in this near the end of section 1 in ch.9. I felt like I got variable and surplus value confused when like looking at it with like the formula view of like (v + c) + s
spoiler
First we will take the case of a spinning mill containing 10,000 mule spindles, spinning No. 32 yarn from American cotton, and producing 1 lb. of yarn weekly per spindle. We assume the waste to be 6%: under these circumstances 10,600 lbs. of cotton are consumed weekly, of which 600 lbs. go to waste. The price of the cotton in April, 1871, was 7¾d. per lb.; the raw material therefore costs in round numbers £342. The 10,000 spindles, including preparation-machinery, and motive power, cost, we will assume, £1 per spindle, amounting to a total of £10,000. The wear and tear we put at 10%, or £1,000 yearly = £20 weekly. The rent of the building we suppose to be £300 a year, or £6 a week. Coal consumed (for 100 horse-power indicated, at 4 lbs. of coal per horse-power per hour during 60 hours, and inclusive of that consumed in heating the mill), 11 tons a week at 8s. 6d. a ton, amounts to about £4½ a week: gas, £1 a week, oil, &c., £4½ a week. Total cost of the above auxiliary materials, £10 weekly. Therefore the constant portion of the value of the week’s product is £378. Wages amount to £52 a week. The price of the yarn is 12¼d. per. lb. which gives for the value of 10,000 lbs. the sum of £510. The surplus-value is therefore in this case £510 - £430 = £80. We put the constant part of the value of the product = 0, as it plays no part in the creation of value. There remains £132 as the weekly value created, which = £52 var. + £80 surpl. The rate of surplus-value is therefore 80/52 = 153 11/13%. In a working-day of 10 hours with average labour the result is: necessary labour = 3 31/33 hours, and surplus-labour = 6 2/33
and in that, like. M would be like, 430? or like that money, since that like the that costs for that week? And that 430 comes from like the constant and variable, which in this would be like that 378 + 52? And then for the process of C, like, constant capital would be 378 and then the variable capital would be 52? and then like P is the yard being made, in which there that product, which is like 510 or that money of 510? And then Marx does that math for that surplus value. Which he found is like 80. I think viewing it from that M-C-P-C'-M' angle helps a lot better, and helps keep track of things better?
I like it when Marx just spells it out when he does it like this C value = (X const + Y vari) + Z surp.
tiny!
such a cute bug
oh yea, same for some songs! for me it kind of just has to like grow on me for some.
also is there an easy way to like remember surplus-value and like variable capital? I feel like I'm gonna get them confused easily, thanks to this chapter
Thanks and I think a lot of that helped clicked some things in place? In a way it sounds like money/value seems like a middle-man? just getting in the way of things in terms of social labor. Also going to private property, at what point does a socialist state decide to take one form of private property and seizes it under the state and abolishing it? A country that comes to mind about this is China
and I ask about private property because of this from Engels