HalfSalesman

Just letting you know I'm leaving work from home now meaning I wont have access to this account. If you respond I'll respond Monday morning.

Despite the seeming hostility and intense disagreement here I don't hold anything against you. I look forward to reading what you have to say. I genuinely enjoy the discourse.

If you are trying to string me along/troll me, you are doing a good job.

And if free will does not exist does your opinion on the matter have any effect on the predetermined outcome? Most forms of determinism believe that people’s happiness and well being are predetermined and our opinions about their feelings has no effect on how they feel. I’m wondering if you actually understand the philosophical concept of determinism?

Do you think people who don't believe in free will shouldn't express their ideas or beliefs in order to be consistent with a lack of belief in free will?

Pure determinism isn't my stated belief. I said I don't believe in free will. You are adding to what I said again, pulling stuff out of thin air.

Here is the core question I have to ask you, given that you seem to believe in free will: What exactly is our will free from?

Random chance doesn't mean free will either. I don't believe in some meta-physical super natural aspect of our will either but even if there was, that still wouldn't mean we have free will either.

Pre-determination isn't the issue: its the nature of choice and how its a completely meaningless illusion. The main impact on morality it would have is in terms of justice and how society functions, but also it essentially means on a interpersonal level that you forgive yourself and others because no one chooses to be born. No one chooses to be who they are, we don't choose our parents, our bodies, our brains. We are shunted into existence and expected to perform life and to take responsibility for it, even when we never choose it to begin with.

It’s an alternative explanation detailing why there are less women on dating apps.

Do you actually think that's the reason? I'm pretty sure its because men have to try a lot harder. Meaning if they want to maximize their chances they need to go on dating apps even when they know they're financially predatory and awful.

So sex… Just like the original post claimed. This is about sex.

Its not only that, but that's a major component. Yeah.

You seem to lack healthy coping skills when you don’t get what you feel you’re entitled too. You seem to reaching out for someone or something to blame for this lack of coping skills.

I never said that I thought I was entitled to that woman. If I thought I was entitled to her I would have kept asking her out or insisting on her dating me.

You also seem to adopt an attitude of morose self deprecation as a defense against any form of criticism. Attempting to redirect the criticism by utilizing guilt as a redirection, aka the pity fallacy or sometime pityfishing.

Here is the thing: I fundamentally disagree with criticism of individuals this way. I think things need to be solved systematically or technologically. Not with psychoanalysis or "pulling ourselves by our boot straps" or whatever. So yeah, when you argue with me and you decide to angle it based on me individually and my individual faults and personal defects and I'm just a bad person, I just fundamentally disagree on the very basis of your engagement with the topic.

I don't need your pity to know I'm right or wrong about something. I want you to argue against my points. I want you to challenge my ideas. I'm not particularly interested in talking about me other than as example/anecdote for my own arguments (which is why I brought up the personal example). If I have "unhealthy opinions" I want to know specifically what they are and then I can either realize I'm objectively wrong or I can retort with some argument. I don't care if call me a bad person is my point. You clearly don't share my moral ideology anyway why would I?

That said, I am an open book: I personally am indeed incredibly depressed (which relates to the self depreciation) but not because of lack of sex. I mean I was depressed in the past because of that when I was still figuring things out maybe but now its because Trump won a second time and that's kind of permeated and filtered how I see people in general. And I mean, also my life sucks and I legitimately resent having been born but none of that is relevant to the current topic of male loneliness in of itself.

You know you chose to avoid them… You have no idea if they knew or not, I don’t imagine reading social cue is probably a specialty of yours.

I mean, sure. I couldn't know for certain. I tried my best to just function at work when I needed to with her. This is an important question: What else could I have materially done? Its not like I could just delete the emotions and just pretend I was fine to chit chat with her at the water cooler or something. If anything I was doing her a favor.

And true, being autistic tends to make me pretty weak at reading people probably on average but I'm probably a bit better than the average autistic person. I'm a very extroverted autistic person. Despite the nihilism and politically induced misanthropy.

You don’t sense that might be problematic? Avoidance is not a healthy coping skill. Avoiding emotions is pretty different than confronting them.

Healthy in what way? For me? I don't think purposefully exposing myself to someone who rejected me who I badly wanted to be with romantically would have been good for me and my heavily obsessive and ruminating autistic brain.

Avoidance was a lesser evil. I have experience enough to know that.

Neither is being in pain because someone is attractive. There are attractive people everywhere, are you in constant crippling emotional pain? Or did that pain really come from being denied something you secretly feel you are entitled to?

There is not that many people that I am that intensely attracted to everywhere no. There is a difference between very attractive and "I want to die when I see them" level of physical attraction.

That said, its frequent enough that I've fallen into a few emotional holes through life, yes. Sometimes its not been avoidable. There are a few stories.

Empathy doesn’t equate to pity. Again you are pityfishing.

I'm not pityfishing what do I even have to gain from your pity? We will never ever meet. I don't care about your opinion of me. I am not important. Neither are you. I care that I am correct that men are fucked by romantic loneliness right now and pulling themselves up by their bootstraps is not a viable solution.

By bringing up our relatively happiness what I was doing was making a point: She is almost certainly fine. She is not a baby. She is an adult woman who had her own life going on. Me keeping things strictly bare minimum and professional was perfectly reasonable. And if it did hurt her feelings, I'm sorry I guess? What do you want from me?

I don’t really think I do, it would negatively effect my work. Plus, even if I did, there’s a matter of scale. I’m not running away or avoiding people based on their looks.

Are you a psychologist or something?

If you don’t believe in free will then what is the point of disputing or chastising any claim? Why would consequences even matter if they are already pre-determined by circumstance or a higher power?

Because suffering, pleasure, and conscious beings are at stake? I'm confused about what you think of the moral implications of not believing in free will actually is. It sounds like you place all meaning on choice/will or something. I don't do that. I care about people's happiness and well being, not their will (at least not intrinsically).

Maybe that’s because women are better at communication and thus are more likely not seek emotional support from friends instead of seeking codependency with a partner.

"better at" is this some sort of team sports competition? Yeah, some groups of people are better at certain things. Is there a reason you hang on that point in particular? I hear this point a lot and I don't know if when I hear it they're saying it as some kind of dunk on men or they're making some kind of constructive contribution/suggestion without explicitly saying it. So you'll need to clarify.

What is the actual difference between romantic loneliness and loneliness…kinda just sounds like you’re defining it as sex plus codependency.

I mean, when it comes to sex and relation with romance, its about physical touch, associating physical release with another human being, another person's pleasure becoming your own. etc.

"Codependency"? If you are entirely cynical perhaps. The term is interdependence. When you romantically bond with someone deeply, you generally become deeply dependent on them and they become dependent on you. And yeah, sex is going to bond you way way stronger to a person.

Eh… Based on our previous conversation you appear to be harboring some unhealthy opinions.

You'll need to be a little more specific. I already know I'm mentally unwell.

It’s not just embarrassing… It’s admitting to immaturity and an inability to process your emotions, and then treating someone poorly because of it. So what, you didn’t get something you wanted, that’s life. There’s no reason then to lash out at your coworker by avoiding them, just because they had the audacity to be attractive.

I did not treat them poorly. They had no idea I was avoiding them. I was polite and professional when I had to interact.

I did not lash out. I was avoiding psychological pain. That's it. I did not hold anything against them individually. Seeing them made me cripplingly and dysfunctionally sad, but they did not know that. Shit if they had seen how sad they made me they'd probably assume I was being emotionally manipulative. There would be no benefit to them interacting with that, I had no desire to make them feel guilty and I had no desire to feel cripplingly sad if it could be avoided.

I think that's a pretty mature and reasonable way to handle things. I'm not sure exactly what your alternative would have been.

You were avoiding confronting your emotional immaturity.

I think I confronted my emotions and decided the best way to handle them was to avoid making them worse and focus on other things and other people as best as I could. How is that immature?

I have empathy… it’s just for your coworker, who did nothing wrong and was treated differently just because she didn’t reciprocate your feelings.

Yeah I'm aware you're real sad for them. I promise you they're almost certainly happier today than I am. I would bet money. And she was never ever even aware of my internal feelings, other than at one point I asked her out and she politely rejected me.

You don’t have to be her work friend, just don’t treat her differently than everyone else because she’s an attractive woman.

You treat people differently based on their appearance all the time. Everyone does. You are probably just less conscious about it.

I think they're primarily authentic rather than trolling/pretending, its just that they have twitter/bluesky disease where they think the best way to engage is by vapidly dunking.

I mean if that was true you wouldn’t have an issue with the original claim.

What? The original claim? That pedophiles are bad? Not believing in free will technically nullifies any moral evaluation of the virtues of any group. The only thing that would matter is consequences.

So what you are saying is that people are lonely.

Yes, but the nature of that loneliness is different when it comes to romantic loneliness within the heterosexual sphere. Just look at how many more men are on dating apps vs women.

And lashing out at other to seek a sliver of personal peace after making a personal choice is socially acceptable behavior that shouldn’t be criticized?

Lashing out? I think you are inserting something into the conversation that I never defended. Maybe mixing up responses.

Jesus Christ… No reason to call yourself out this hard. Are you in middle school or something?

I never understood this obsession with anon people "telling on themselves". Its called setting aside ego and engaging in good faith. We don't know each other, there is no reason for me to restrict what I say here about myself. I'll tell you any embarrassing thing about myself because why would I care? There are no stakes other than the discourse. Which you don't seem like you have a good authentic desire to engage with.

TBH I'm also pretty dead inside so I probably wouldn't care if we were in person either but still why are you so obsessed with status on a random internet thread?

What if they believed that you were painfully ugly, and avoided you because of it, treated you differently just because of your appearance… Do you even understand what I’m getting at here?

I think you are potentially projecting additional details here and that by avoiding her I was hurting her feelings or something. She almost certainly had no idea I was avoiding her. I wasn't making a big show of it.

I had no ill will towards her I just was avoiding an infohazard.

I don’t have a sliver of empathy for your “chronic pain”. Some random woman was attractive, and didn’t reciprocate your romantic interests and you chronically avoided them, a co-worker…

Its completely unsurprising to me that you lack empathy and it was an error of mine in assuming you were maybe capable of it considering your other responses. My mistake I guess.

Its not like I owed her my consistent presence outside of professional necessity which was fortunately rare. Its not some kind of injustice that I dare not be her work friend.

That is part of it for people who desperately need external validation, but if it was the only element no one would bother with prostitutes, VR porn, and sex dolls at all. Heck, if that was enough more men probably would be content to just be "friend zoned" because friendship is very validating.

In reality though its existential and experiential. Its men wanting to experience something extremely pleasurable and contentment bringing (and consistently) before they take their final dirtnap. Its fear of missing out on a major life experience of being in a sexual relationship for key parts of their lives (20's and 30's). Every day they're single they experience the fear of their youthful years slipping away and missing out on some of the most fulfilling and fun activities a human can participate in.

Thank you.

Not if the trait itself was a valid criticism. All pedophiles are bad…is that a bad generality to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_Pedophiles

Acting on it is bad obviously.

Thing is, I also don't believe in good/evil or free will. As a result I categorically reject virtue ethics anyway so IDK how meaningful discussing this further can be.

They were specifically talking about people with the idea of a male loneliness epidemic. An ideology that is utilized to radicalize young men by right winged influencers.

The male loneliness epidemic isn't strictly a "rightwing ideology". Incel/redpill is rightwing ideology.

There is also a female loneliness epidemic. Though its fairly different in nature.

If it wasn’t about sex then they would just focus on building healthy relationships with friends.

I never said that sex wasn't an important component of the issue.

If they are making a conscious decision to not pursue sex then why are they upset?

You aren't this dumb. You know exactly why they'd still be upset. They would be making the conscious decision because they are trying to seek a sliver of personal peace after a period of failure or simply because of disillusionment with heterosexual dating. Its not like they'd be making that decision and feel content that they're going to live without a sexual or romantic partner. They're trying to avoid the pain of the process of seeking it, they'd still want a partner.

Have you never seen someone so attractive to you that it physically HURT? I have. Literal physical chronic pain. And once I established they lacked any mutual romantic interest in me I avoided them like the plague and tried to forget they existed as best as possible, which was hard because I worked in the same building. Thank fuck I don't work there anymore.

I mean, focusing just on the mental illness thing, your suggestions "to take meds that you need not the ones that you want" kind of also come off as patronizing TBH as well.

Anti-depressants have side effects that can directly get in the way of even getting laid (notably lowered sex drive). If someone is trying to get laid then it makes sense that they're avoiding them.

I myself take anti-anxiety meds which lack that side effect and have helped me a lot though.

And if someone is so inclined, as long as they're responsible I don't think taking drugs to enhance one's work out and fitness is intrinsically harmful. Though TBH I do think they're a waste of time for attracting women anyway and absolutely there is a lot of toxic nonsense spread about them by grifters. Women pretty consistently state and demonstrate that they're more attracted lean machines not muscle monsters anyway.

I agree to a major extent about avoiding social media though. Shit eats away at your time for almost nothing in return. I'm only on Lemmy myself during work.

I mask a lot better when I'm not depressed. (I'm horribly depressed.)

That said I still mask as second nature pretty well as I consistently get the "I wouldn't have guessed you were autistic." response from people a lot. I generally love socializing and I'm pretty good at it from experience and the topic of "people" being an on and off special interest.

It was an example of it conceptually it wasn't meant to be a serious generality obviously.

Also generalities are bad. If people started saying that people with specific traits that you specifically share were always bad people in some way, it would bother you.

Further, you can be bothered even if you are emotionally secure about yourself. Its not always even "taking it personally" because sometimes people have empathy for people who are like them but aren't them and dislike seeing them thrown under the bus.

I myself am not really a guy who is bad with women anymore (I'm not rolling in pussy but I can get around) but I used to be painfully bad about it and I know I wasn't some awful person worthy of scorn and disdain because of that. I wasn't some loser sociopath for wanting sex with women when I wasn't getting any.

And neither are lonely sad sexless guys. I don't like them being mocked because I've been there and I know that it doesn't help to be mocked for a "skill issue" anyway. Mocking them sends them further into a self loathing or hateful spiral. Telling them to be better people implies they are bad people for not having sex or having a girlfriend.

Its like telling fat people they're fat: it doesn't actually help. It usually makes them give up.

That said... them saying they're done with dating doesn't mean they're bad people either. Just like women don't owe them sex, these men also don't owe women their time and effort. Its perfectly morally fine to be done with dating women forever. It wont be pleasant for the guys who try TBH, but its morally fine.

Now, are some of these guys pieces of shit? Sure, but that doesn't relate to their sexlessness. Absolute pieces of trash have sex with hotties and it doesn't suddenly make them good people either.

If someone said "lemmy users with the word 'empire' in their name are unworthy of love and need to get gud at dating." I think you might take their words a little personal even if the post wasn't literally directly targeted at you.