GarbageShootAlt2

joined 2 years ago
[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This is wrong on almost every level. It wasn't a genocide (some people call it that, but the mainstream liberal historical consensus is that it was collectivization being botched along with some bad crop conditions), it has very little to do with anything happening in the war, and the Russian Federation was brought into existence in order to overthrow the communists. The logical end point of Putin's weird revanchist rhetoric is closer to wanting to undo the separation of nations in the former Russian Empire that began under Lenin and bring things back to the Tsarist model that preceded it. That's what he means when he says that he wants to show Ukraine what "decommunization" entails, since the Ukrainian Soviet Republic, while it was still under a central authority, had greater autonomy than the region had under the Tsar and he is making the threat that he will take that away.

God, I hate how bad education is that this even needs to be explained. Imperial Russia had been suffering from famines on a cyclical basis for centuries and, contrary to what some people say, neither Lenin nor Stalin were magicians who could just bend reality in the USSR, though many -- including some "Stalinist" Marxists -- argue that Stalin basically tried to for left-deviationist reasons when material conditions didn't actually support collectivising the way he wanted the state to, and that (along with drought and blight) caused the famine. Important to understanding this, however, is that the only time there would ever be a famine in the USSR after that was in the aftermath of the Nazi invasion as a direct result thereof. The next "famine" in Russia would be around 50 years later with the establishment of the Russian Federation, where the gutting of just about every public program and industry caused a huge excess death event over a period of a couple years.

The idea of it being a genocide -- aside from being a lie popularized by Goebbels that has no support in the Soviet archives -- is even more ridiculous for the fact that the famine ended and nothing ever happened to the Ukrainians on fractionally that scale except for the Nazis! But of course the Ukrainian Nazis love saying the Russians wanted all Ukrainians dead, because it gave them cover for perpetrating the Holocaust (see "double genocide theory").

To add one last point on "this doesn't work as a genocide," a plurality of the victims were Ukrainian nationals, but it was spread out over multiple nations and the part of Ukraine the famine impacted was overwhelmingly in the east. You know, the part that's Russian in huge disproportion. Of course, one of the other countries impacted, with I think 1.5 million dead or something like that, was Russia! It would be like trying to wipe out a population by detonating an atom bomb where a quarter of the blast is on your side of the border, then just not doing anything when most of the population you targeted survived! It only makes sense if you're assuming the Russians were such miserable morons that the dumbest Banderite bandit is incomparably more refined.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 months ago

Think the little red book was a bad strategy for its time because it's essentially a collection of quotations, so it wasn't good for systematic understanding of Mao's thought. In the modern day the internet at least makes it somewhat better because the LRB has citations, so you can just look them up and see the context for the statement.

I'm kind of curious how the LRB came about, since it feels pretty condescending, but Mao was perhaps the most optimistic political leader I've ever heard of in terms of just giving the people a small bit of advice or a revised law and letting them handle the rest (this sometimes went extremely poorly, of course).

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Aside, again, from the fact that Gaza is being undercounted severely due to strict criteria for marking a civilian death combined with most of the hospitals in Gaza being blown up, yes! the rate of killing matters a great deal to understanding what is going on unless you are taking the hysterical view that Putin is going to kill every Ukrainian and is just dragging his feet a little.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Didn’t formulate it any way, that’s you assuming.

That's me reading English. What I was referring to is a set phrase, but it's not a fossilization, it's still just what the words mean if you're actively putting them together. God, this is such an annoying, pointless argument.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I am obliged to note that genocide does not need to be racial (it can target religion, sexuality, nationality, etc.), but your point stands because none of those apply either. I'll just mark it in the Black Book of Capitalism and be content with that.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

You formulated it as though you were bringing up something new: "you mean the same X who Y" is for introducing something new into the conversation in relation to X, with X here being Jill Stein. If you had just used David Duke as X and "who lead the KKK" as Y, it wouldn't have been an absurd contribution.

Though it would still be a silly one, since people know who David Duke is, it's not some obscure fact. He's the single most recognizable name in connection with the KKK, perhaps along with the long-dead D.W. Griffith (but probably not).

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 months ago (4 children)

starved a great many by just capitalist ideology, but that’s not really genocide…

Genocide doesn't require bloodthirst, it does just fine with sacrifice whole populations for some other goal or accepting those deaths as "collateral". The UN definition supports this.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

What are you doing with cutesy sarcasm and cherrypicked headlines? Just look at the civilian death tolls. The immediately-presented numbers are 36k over 3.5 years to 42k over 1 year, and that's again with massive under-reporting in the latter case.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 5 points 9 months ago

Did you even read what I said? I directly acknowledged that the logical implication of my strategy is that Trump is more likely to win the upcoming election because I'm interested in how subsequent elections will be impacted. The calculus of "Always vote for the nearest viable candidate" is liberal dogma, yes, but it's not the only strategy and I find it to be a bad long-term strategy, because it just incentivizes an accelerating rightward drift from the "left" candidate, leaving you with two right candidates.

Despite needing to re-explain myself, I took what you said at face value and not as just being condescending wank, and now I guess I have egg on my face for my trouble.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

When I said:

and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.

This was me saying "It frames things as though losing the election means that all is lost and there won't be future elections."

As I'm pretty sure I explained to you an hour ago in another thread, I think it's an acceptable loss for the Democrats to lose an election to put pressure on them to change or else to establish that they are more loyal to the US project of Israel than they are to trying to win elections or do what voters want or anything like that.

I don't proactively want Trump to win, but I find it totally acceptable since what sets him apart from other Republicans is not that he is especially fascist in the substance of what he is likely to do. It might actually be possible to browbeat me if we had a Tom "throne of Chinese skulls" Cotton or someone as the nominee, he actually represents something that could be totalizing to me, but Trump is just kind of a deranged grifter and Vance is a more even-keel grifter.

So to save us both time, no, I don't think we agree on any points. I wasn't commenting toward that end, I merely wanted to say that the comic is unhelpful.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (8 children)

There’s a genocide roughly 10x as large going on in Ukraine

Civilian deaths in Ukraine over the last ~3.5 years are still smaller than the substantially underestimated civilian death toll in Gaza after 1 year (which came from a very stringent set of definitions that basically can't be executed on anymore because of Israel bombing the hospitals).

There's no way you could get to this conclusion except some hysterical idea about Putin wanting to put all the Ukrainians in camps as though that's what he did with Crimea.

[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago

I’m confused how you believe that Israel’s rabid ethnic cleansing campaign is a liberal democrat policy,

This is the form imperialism typically takes, an imperial "core" where things are relatively comfortable and humane and a "periphery" where things are extremely brutal. It's more obvious when there's a war the core has more direct involvement in, like Obama siccing the Air Force on Yemen in conjunction with the Saudis, but this too is a case of it.

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