EnglishMobster

(Continued from parent due to post length constraints.)

You say we should move off-site. There's already a large general-purpose forum for Disney: MiceChat. It's a classic non-federated forum, from a bygone age of the internet. People who aren't attached to a Reddit-like interface typically are on MiceChat, or one of the thousands of Disney Facebook groups. They're the largest Disney community on the internet.

We discussed running our own Disney-themed Kbin instance (like /r/StarTrek and /r/Android both did), that would be a federated competitor to MiceChat. The idea still appeals to me. But the fact of the matter is that we didn't have the time nor money to be admins. I have a full-time job where I can't be spending time working as an admin all day (and - fun fact - I actually did work for Disney, formerly), and I don't have the legal know-how to host a website.

Making a community on someone else's instance doesn't have those same issues. kbin.social has a sane admin team and is permissive with federation, giving the magazine a large reach (but keeping out hate speech and trolls). There are people on here who want to participate in their hobbies - like going to Disneyland, which for many is a hobby - or who want to use the community as a resource (and the Disneyland subreddit was a resource, too).

Because at the end of the day - it is a lot of work, but seeing a thriving community is rewarding. You grow attached to it. It's why people play simulation games; you help shepard people along, make people happy, and watch the line go up. It's not "ego" any more than playing a city builder game is "ego". I certainly never threw my weight around on Reddit; our subreddit was positively tiny compared to others. The only time I used my green badge on Reddit was to give people warnings or make community-wide announcements. The only time I mentioned I was a mod elsewhere was when I needed a "fun fact" to introduce myself with at work/school or when it's directly relevant (like letting people on the fediverse know that the magazine here is run by the same team that ran it on Reddit).

The Disneyland subreddit was a good community, IMO. The whole mod team did a lot of work to keep it good, and I was proud to help out. Connecting people with the resources they need and letting them show off the things that made them excited, while keeping the spambots and trolls at bay and redirecting lost folks to the right spot. It's something you need to experience to understand.

One thing that was missing was Disney's direct involvement. Disney never contacted us. Even when I worked for them - corporate knew I was a mod there but left us alone since it was considered my personal business (my only restriction was that I couldn't say I was speaking officially on behalf of the company). As long as the sidebar said that we were fan-run, Disney never said a peep. Because Disney didn't have any official presence on Reddit, folks would frequently repost news shared by Disney to the subreddit directly.

Threads gives us a unique opportunity to be able to connect folks to official Disney social media right here on Kbin. They'd be able to interact 2-way without needing to make a Threads account themselves (and without Disney needing to come here officially). It's really the best thing that could happen for that type of community, and it would be a shame to lose out on it.

I am using "my magazine" as a colloquial term for "the magazine I moderate", obviously not as the term for "the magazine I own". I trust you know that and are arguing in bad faith.

You can go start your own magazine on another instance if you wish. The presence of one does not preclude competition. Heck, you can even start another one here; we had similar subreddits on Reddit. The /r/WaltDisneyWorld folks were an example of a bad mod team on a power trip, which caused splinter subreddits to pop up like /r/DisneyWorld. The /r/WaltDisneyWorld mod team came here to Kbin and sure enough Kbin has already splintered too - there's @WaltDisneyWorld (original WaltDisneyWorld mods), @DisneyWorld, and @wdw.

If you think you can do a good job running a Disneyland magazine, I'm not going to stop you from making DisneylandResort or DisneyParks or going to Lemmy and making something there. Competition is good and healthy.

But... I don't think you truly appreciate how much work moderating a community can be. I literally was a mod for 1 sizeable subreddit (I was a mod on 2-3 other subs, technically, but they had subscriber counts in the dozens and rarely saw activity).

I'd love to show you what moderating a subreddit with 500k subscribers really looks like. It gets bad. Gore, scat, porn, hate, bigotry, and trolling - you deal with it all. Death threats in modmail to boot. And we were just 500k subs! The former default subs have millions and they are far worse, I've been told.

We ran a community for folks to discuss a single topic: the Disneyland Resort in Anaheim, CA. Not Hong Kong Disneyland, not Disneyland Paris, not Walt Disney World. Those have their own subreddits, with their own communities and their own mod team (plus /r/disneyparks). I wasn't associated with any of them outside of small formalities; I only got to know them during the blackout when we did look into coordinating our own site. (More on that later.)

If each mod team didn't do their job, each sub would be overrun with posts that don't fit the sub. We're constantly removing posts about WDW or Disneyland Paris or Shanghai Disneyland or whatever. We're constantly removing posts from people talking about general Disney stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the park. It's a lot of work to curate a feed, and when the effort is made in good faith we redirect people to more appropriate places to talk about the things they're passionate about.

People joined that subreddit to talk about the Disneyland in Anaheim; many didn't care about Shanghai Disneyland or whatever. If we missed something and a person posts about the "wrong" park (which happens sometimes, even with AutoMod), the community generally comes in and downvotes the post (and sometimes insults the user). From their perspective, they're seeing some content they don't care about/want in their feed. And technically, per Reddiquette, that's what the downvote button is "supposed" to be for - sorting out things that don't belong.

It's like posting a TikTok link to /r/YoutubeHaiku or a picture to /r/videos - each community has a set of rules and a social contract to enforce them. That's what makes a good community with relevant content that makes you come back. Without a good mod team, a subreddit gets overrun with posts that don't fit the sub - you can see some of that here on Lemmy/Kbin already. This is both because mod tools are lacking (no AutoMod) and because people are changing instances as they see fit. For example, @Starwars is abandoned, I think - the only(!!!) mod hasn't been active in weeks. I've seen things here like videos in the politics communities and other things that wouldn't fly with larger mod teams.

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Yes. Here are the timelines:

The DMA started applying as of beginning of May 2023. Within two months, companies providing core platform services have to notify the Commission and provide all relevant information. The Commission will then have 45 working days to adopt a decision designating a specific gatekeeper. Designated gatekeepers will have six months after the Commission decision to ensure compliance with the obligations foreseen in the DMA.

So we should start hearing things in about 2-3 months, with compliance in 8-9 months.

Relevant sections:

The ability of end users to acquire content, subscriptions, features or other items outside the core platform services of the gatekeeper should not be undermined or restricted. In particular, a situation should be avoided whereby gatekeepers restrict end users from access to, and use of, such services via a software application running on their core platform service. For example, subscribers to online content purchased outside a software application, software application store or virtual assistant should not be prevented from accessing such online content on a software application on the core platform service of the gatekeeper simply because it was purchased outside such software application, software application store or virtual assistant.

Gatekeepers can hamper the ability of end users to access online content and services, including software applications. Therefore, rules should be established to ensure that the rights of end users to access an open internet are not compromised by the conduct of gatekeepers. Gatekeepers can also technically limit the ability of end users to effectively switch between different undertakings providing internet access service, in particular through their control over hardware or operating systems. This distorts the level playing field for internet access services and ultimately harms end users. It should therefore be ensured that gatekeepers do not unduly restrict end users in choosing the undertaking providing their internet access service.

The lack of interoperability allows gatekeepers that provide number-independent interpersonal communications services to benefit from strong network effects, which contributes to the weakening of contestability. Furthermore, regardless of whether end users ‘multi-home’, gatekeepers often provide number-independent interpersonal communications services as part of their platform ecosystem, and this further exacerbates entry barriers for alternative providers of such services and increases costs for end users to switch. Without prejudice to Directive (EU) 2018/1972 of the European Parliament and of the Council (14) and, in particular, the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 61 thereof, gatekeepers should therefore ensure, free of charge and upon request, interoperability with certain basic functionalities of their number-independent interpersonal communications services that they provide to their own end users, to third-party providers of such services.

Gatekeepers should ensure interoperability for third-party providers of number-independent interpersonal communications services that offer or intend to offer their number-independent interpersonal communications services to end users and business users in the Union. To facilitate the practical implementation of such interoperability, the gatekeeper concerned should be required to publish a reference offer laying down the technical details and general terms and conditions of interoperability with its number-independent interpersonal communications services. It should be possible for the Commission, if applicable, to consult the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications, in order to determine whether the technical details and the general terms and conditions published in the reference offer that the gatekeeper intends to implement or has implemented ensures compliance with this obligation.

In all cases, the gatekeeper and the requesting provider should ensure that interoperability does not undermine a high level of security and data protection in line with their obligations laid down in this Regulation and applicable Union law, in particular Regulation (EU) 2016/679 and Directive 2002/58/EC. The obligation related to interoperability should be without prejudice to the information and choices to be made available to end users of the number-independent interpersonal communication services of the gatekeeper and the requesting provider under this Regulation and other Union law, in particular Regulation (EU) 2016/679.

Pretty clear legislation - no lock-in, don't block access to content, you must publish your API for others to use. Very good legislation.

"I know exactly what React is, I prefer to use Vue" shows you literally have zero clue what React is.

You don't choose when you visit a website. There's no option that says "render this with Vue." It's handled by the website itself. Lemmy uses Inferno instead of React, for example. You didn't make that choice, and I highly doubt you chose Lemmy because researched that beforehand. And if you did, by going to Lemmy's GitHub page... surprise! GitHub uses React!

I think you need to take a history lesson on the web. I gave multiple examples of tech Facebook has backed, and yet EEE hasn't happened to any of them. There are more open techs that Facebook has contributed code to; a lot of Apache projects, for example. And yet no EEE. Curious. Also I noticed you're avoiding the "EU will come down on Facebook if they get out of line" side of my argument. Also curious.

But I suppose that's not a surprise. It's clear you have no idea how things even work; you probably googled (oh, wait, you probably don't use Google) "React replacement" to find Vue at all. You probably didn't know Vue was created by a Google engineer and Google uses it internally. I suggest you change what web framework you use, if you have that magic button tucked away. Maybe switch to Inferno?

Not to mention you say you never used the Reddit app. I never said anything about the Reddit app. I was talking about the Reddit website. Unless you've never used the Reddit website, either? I trust you're going to say you've never owned anything but a flip phone and do web searches with a phone book next.

You conclude by making a strawman and putting words in my mouth that I never said. You think if I loved corporations I would be here? But you've made multiple factual inaccuracies, you never source anything you say, you just constantly pout like the world is ending and try to force everyone else to do things your way.

But you're right. We do have different viewpoints. I suggest you stop spreading yours as factual, or use that phone book to find sources.

(And for the record, I despise Elon.)

Are you really saying you don't use PayPal? I presume you have a job; your job probably uses Slack (or Teams) at the corporate level. You're never streamed anything? You're not coming from Reddit? You don't use Wikipedia? Or Spotify? Or reCAPTCHA?

I most sincerely doubt that you've never used any of those, all of which run on tech that Facebook built and helps maintain. And I'm not even mentioning the countless small places that use things like React. I'm not joking when I say you literally cannot use the modern web without bumping into a website running React, which was - again - created by Facebook.

Maybe you think the things I mentioned are "apps" - they're not, to be clear. They're frameworks. You generally have no idea you're using them, because it's something that gets setup by the folks building the website. You don't directly download React.js; you go to Discord.gg and Discord will download React to your machine and run it to display Discord. Same thing with Wikipedia - you go to Wikipedia, it uses HHVM to show you the page you want.

If you knew all that already and still think you don't use tech run by Facebook, then your ignorance of how the web works is shocking.

I also think you're struggling with the concept of "Meta doesn't want the EU to come down on them." They will never extend the network in a way that breaks apps, and they can't extinguish it because both of those would make them "gatekeepers" under EU law - the thing they're trying to avoid.

You have to understand that - as much as I dislike capitalism - it is what drives consumers. Linux is the better OS than Windows. That's proven by basically everything running Linux... except consumer PCs, which are usually Macs or Windows. Because Linux doesn't advertise itself like they do, not really.

The way for the fediverse to grow is to get corporations to embrace it. The more corporations that embrace it, the less likely it is that any individual corpo can extend/extinguish (assuming they ignore the EU for some reason). Corporations means regular users, and regular users means normalization, which means a healthy and growing fediverse.

Rather than trying to get a big place to reject this at all cost, maybe you should move to a small place like Beehaw that will more readily accept your worldview.

I think you need to open your eyes as to the real reason why Threads exists. Instead of baseless claims, let's use a source, shall we?

It's obvious why Facebook would want to make a Twitter clone. But the Digital Markets Act is likely why that clone uses ActivityPub: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en

Examples of the “do’s” - Gatekeeper platforms will have to:

• allow third parties to inter-operate with the gatekeeper’s own services in certain specific situations
• allow their business users to access the data that they generate in their use of the gatekeeper’s platform
• provide companies advertising on their platform with the tools and information necessary for advertisers and publishers to carry out their own independent verification of their advertisements hosted by the gatekeeper
• allow their business users to promote their offer and conclude contracts with their customers outside the gatekeeper’s platform

The interoperability is the big one. Being federated means that Threads isn't considered a "gatekeeper platform". I wouldn't be surprised if Instagram and maybe even Facebook itself start to federate as well. Since Threads isn't currently connected to the wider fediverse, that's probably why they're not in the EU yet - because it's currently in violation of the Digital Markets Act.

This also means that fears of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" are likely overblown and FUD. Breaking ActivityPub interoperability means that they'd be a gatekeeper again and subject to EU regulations against gatekeepers.

I'm not saying Facebook is innocent. But I think people are so paranoid about things like EEE when there is clear evidence that EEE is not in Facebook's best interest.

We want the fediverse to be a "normal" thing. Heck, we should get as many corporations as possible onboard, because then fears of EEE go out the window entirely. That's how other protocols like Matter work - a bunch of corporations work with an open entity to decide collectively how the protocol should work.

And, if you pay attention, the web - and specifically Facebook - has been using open protocols like those for years without issue. Many of these open protocols the web uses were made by Facebook. Some examples:

• React.js

React is a JavaScript library that was created by Facebook.

It makes webpages pretty, basically. It makes things load really really fast while still looking clean and modern.

Dropbox, Paypal, Discord, Slack, Netflix, AirBnB all use React.

• HHVM

HHVM was created by Facebook.

HHVM is what executes the Hack programming language (also made by Facebook). Hack is based on PHP (the same thing Kbin runs on), but is optimized in a different way and is more flexible than traditional PHP.

Slack and Wikipedia are the biggest users of HHVM.

• Cassandra

Cassandra was created by Facebook.

Cassandra works basically as an alternative to MySQL. It does much of the same job, but works a bit better making sure there's no single point of failure.

Uber, Netflix, Reddit, Spotify, and Twitter all use Cassandra.

• Apache Thrift

Thrift was created by Facebook.

It connects programs that were created using different programming languages. They can all share a data format through Thrift, which lets them talk to each other.

Thrift is used by Netflix, Evernote, Twitter, Uber, and reCAPTCHA.

Literally you could not use the modern web without using these technologies. I'm leaving 5-6 more out for space constraints. Meta has a loud voice in most of those techs, and outright controls a handful of them. That's been the case for most of the 2010s into the 2020s.

I wouldn't say I trust Facebook with the fediverse. But I'm also not so quick to jump to EEE because they do have a fairly solid track record when it comes to web tech.

And I don't think "this isn't a place for normies, normies go home!!!" is a winning proposition to make sure the fediverse becomes big enough that EEE isn't an issue. We want widespread adoption. Smaller instances will always exist, and if that's what you want you should join an explicitly small instance like Beehaw. Let the bigger instances federate and be federated with. Stop spreading baseless FUD.

Yes, and that's likely why Threads uses ActivityPub to begin with. See the EU's Digital Markets Act: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en

Examples of the “do’s” - Gatekeeper platforms will have to:

• allow third parties to inter-operate with the gatekeeper’s own services in certain specific situations
• allow their business users to access the data that they generate in their use of the gatekeeper’s platform
• provide companies advertising on their platform with the tools and information necessary for advertisers and publishers to carry out their own independent verification of their advertisements hosted by the gatekeeper
• allow their business users to promote their offer and conclude contracts with their customers outside the gatekeeper’s platform

The interoperability is the big one. Being federated means that Threads isn't considered a "gatekeeper platform". I wouldn't be surprised if Instagram and maybe even Facebook itself start to federate as well. Since Threads isn't currently connected to the wider fediverse, that's probably why they're not in the EU yet.

This also means that fears of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" are likely overblown. Breaking fediverse interoperability means that they'd be a gatekeeper again and subject to EU regulations against gatekeepers. The whole reason why Facebook is making Threads ActivityPub is so they don't get hit by EU rules about being gatekeepers of content.

This means your normal fediverse apps (e.g. Fedilab) would be able to work with Threads natively, without any need for "read-only" instances like you say.

This is what I did - I put a clip-on desk fan on the table in front of the enclosure doors.

When I print something that needs more cooling (PLA), I print with the doors open and the fan on. Haven't had an issue since.

My worry that many articles are going to have a biased take on the situation, or be coming from Mastodon etc. where things don't map up 1:1.

My perspective:

I moderate a medium-sized magazine here on Kbin (@Disneyland, about 264 subscribers here and a couple dozen elsewhere on the fediverse). You can't moderate a magazine from another instance, nor can you redirect a magazine somewhere else. This means I effectively must use Kbin.social, especially since I also mod the /r/Disneyland subreddit and have been redirecting people to our magazine for a month now.

I personally would like to see Threads here, if only because @disneyparks would be a nice fit to have automatically included in our microblog tab. I can't go to another instance that supports Threads because again - moderators on Kbin can't be from different instances. And besides - me being on another instance doesn't stop the fact that I couldn't have content from Threads automatically added here. So my options are basically "deal with it" or "abandon the community here".

It really sucks that there is a way that could make my magazine better by including actual official Disney sources in our Disney-themed magazine, but some people are afraid of EEE they are trying to keep that from everyone. I'd rather federate with Threads and allow users to individually block the domain if they desire.

• If EEE is the worry, fight them at the "extend" step, not the "embrace" one.

• If mountains of spam is the worry - people have to manually follow people from other instances for those posts to federate to Kbin, so not every single account will magically pop up here on Kbin. It'll be accounts that people on Kbin have followed; a small chunk.

• Vice-versa, Threads is full of casual users who don't know much about the fediverse. Any Threads users interacting on Kbin are those who understand the fediverse and go out of their way to subscribe to Kbin magazines from Threads. We know from past history that these are going to be a minority; even within the fediverse, Mastodon is huge (and tech-savvy) but we see very few Mastodon folks posting to Kbin threads.

• If "Facebook is sucking up all my data" is the worry, they could do that anyway. The fediverse is open and public; they can easily set up a "shadow instance" that federates everywhere and slurps everything. They don't need Threads for that.

If people just don't want to see Threads users at all, making the block button defederate on the account level would be wonderful. If people choose to block Threads, then Threads users couldn't see them and vice versa. People who see Threads as a potential useful resource (myself, for the magazine I mod) would still be able to have that content in the community here on Kbin. Everyone's happy.

Interestingly, on Kbin this is upside down but on the original instance it's right-side up.

Is it like Stardew Valley or more hardcore? My fiance loves casual games like Stardew, Harvest Moon, and Animal Crossing but hates anything where she could "lose" (basically).

On the one hand, it seems like it gives me Stardew vibes, but on the other hand I see the word "roguelike" and wonder if maybe she's going to get frustrated and stop playing it.

They had me until they started pushing their Web3 bullshit. Crypto bros co-opted the term and kept it away from "real" Web 3.0 tech like the fediverse.