Egon

I assumed that. You can see your imaginary scenario play out in plenty of areas and it doesn't go to well most of the time. People are going from point a to point b and that means they're trying to go with some speed. If you make the traffic environment uncertain/unsafe then you get collisions and tensions. This isn't black&white, there's times where mixed-use with poor signage can be a good idea, but it's mainly for recreational areas that make it clear to all that they need to be aware of their surrounding. As general traffic planning it's not a good go-to.

You shouldn't regret that, honestly it's treatbrain from the other side. Your actual argument shines thru fine, people just dig down on the car thing so they don't have to discuss the fact that rental e-scooters are a techbro scam in the west.

A disposable e-scooter produced by some techbro to get dumped in a city with a somewhat cohesive pedestrian/bicyclist network isn't "so much better for the environment" because the alternative isn't a car, the alternative is a bike. A ride-share e-scooter has a lifespan of about 9-18 months and then it's kaput. It's not good.

But we're discussing them as they've implemented here, not in China. As they've been implemented here, they suck and make infrastructure worse for everyone else, not better.

You do not want this in practice, trust me. It's not fun and it makes so people revert to cars because it's then the only mode of transport that makes them feel safe.

You'd wager wrong. People do this because the e-scooters are parked on the middle of bike paths, pedestrian paths, etc. making the city less traversable for everyone involved. Since the companies that rent them do nothing about this, people have taken the only solution available to them: Destruction.

Bikes aren't motor vehicles

On the one hand you have people living in walkable cities that almost universally hate the e-scooter.
On the other you have a bunch of americans who have managed to grasp the concept "car bad", but have not moved on to the "why" and are thus stuck at not comprehending why people might take issue with the way E-scooters take up public space.

In this situation you chose an example where a car was involved sadly, so your overarching point will not be interrogated, but I just want to say: I agree with you. E-scooters fucking suck, they make life much worse for pedestrians and bicyclists. Traffic here (speaking as a bicyclist) has gotten much better since they've been banned from downtown.

Thank you. This and "I'd like to thank my mother and yours" were gems I found in the middle of this frustating slapfight lol

Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn't create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I've used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I've asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I've gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I'd like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren't willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can't see how I wouldn't also be volunteering.

The question as I've posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I've presented a solid case for both, but it's still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.

The finale of the latest season is so good though. The ireland season... was maybe their worst one.

I got in a slapfight with two libs after asking why they won't volunteer for Ukraine. I think it turned out kinda funny, have a look if you want https://hexbear.net/comment/5016177 I think I might have found a new tactic to handle debatelords: Outdebatelord them + prose