DrivebyHaiku

Unsure what this has to do with my comment which was in reply to your statement about not knowing what the statement in the original post likely meant by "relaxing". I never stated the friends must be women.

Trans guy here - in part what I think might be meant is the pressure of expected romance. Like it is certainly a thing when younger AFAB people are trying to find regular old cis male companionship that there's often this sort of pressure where you can tell when someone is crushing on you and it's a matter of if and when they make their move. That time can be dreaded because a lot of the time once someone makes their move if the romantic advance isn't accepted the friendship disappears and the feeling left behind is that you were never a friend at all. That you were tricked into valuing a friendship that wasn't real because it was a down payment on an expected return of sexual or romantic affection.

And yes, I am aware it's awkward and hard to stay around someone who rejected you romantically. It's also hard to lose a friend because of something you had literally no control over and to mourn that. Sticking around and remaining a friend and getting past your romantic flop is a service to all sides involved if what you actually feel is cut off from friendship. Otherwise it really makes the assertion that this isn't about sex ring very hollow.

In my 20's an asexual closeted trans person who counted men as my tribe and wanted nothing but friends that felt normal and lasted - at one point I got so desperate I agreed to a sexless "romantic" relationship by way of fear of losing my best friend. Even though my "boyfriend" was a perfect gentleman during the time we were "together" I ended up in a two year long situationship that in the end felt skeezy and colors that time of my life in a sense of wrongness. I never developed romantic feelings and that whole set up ended up being sickening and oppressive. After it ended that friendship became remote and I lost what I valued somewhere along the line anyway.

It doesn't surprise me that so many women aren't all that empathetic to the male loneliness epidemic even though in this post it is being expressed in a really shit way. It doesn't take many guys dumping you on your ass simply because they got attracted to you and decided not to stick around afterwards before you start feeling like their lonely heart is not your problem to solve. It feels just like if you had a friend who was using you for your money or some sort of service you were providing. Feeling used and discarded is traumatic. People who get hurt this way start getting very suspicious of new friendships and maintain distance because they are guarding from getting hurt again.

In summary - It's really hard to relax around someone who is coming at you with an expectation you might not be able to meet. The more obvious it is the more you can potentially save yourself the trouble of not getting invested early.

See I don't think the "tribe" is the trouble when one is given the option and space to choose or abandon their tribes freely with no cost. If this particular culture isn't your jam there's plenty of others that do similar that might be to your taste.

Applying the trauma of racism, religious persecution and so on to a digital place that is one of many... Doesn't feel genuine. I have a lot of feelings about places becoming toxic through allowing racist/phobic stuff to thrive but it's not like the people booted from spaces who hold those views are shut out in the absolute cold. There are spaces where their veiws and comfort is centered it just doesn't nessisarily overlap with where I am.

Saying we must accept absolutely everything because "tribes are bad" seems to apply some axiomatic principle to the lowest of low stakes social clubs. The Internet is a string of endless bars next to each other, if you don't like what one place is serving there's another one down the road.

On the topic of echo chambers - At what point did we decide that a bunch of people over a wide geographical area with similar interests and a common code of standards/preferences of civility... Is a bad thing?

It's kind of how social clubs exist irl.

That definition can cover quite a few autocratic or authorian systems like monarchy as an example. Facism isn't super hard to define if you know what to look for it's just the rubric always seems over the top and hyperbolic when applied contemporarily until whatever regime is being painted with the brush starts emulating Nazis on a 1:1 basis. The people who saw it coming from 10 years ago and ringing alarm bells were seeing fascist rhetoric back then and they weren't wrong it's just people don't veiw facism as being anything but it's worst fully realized iteration.

The easiest guage is to see how much Nationalist sentiment there is paired with calls to return to a mythical golden age, populist rhetoric surrounding a figure with authoritarian sentiments, scapegoating of groups of "outsiders" vs a "rightful inheritor" narrative and active erosion of democratic structures.

"Being born in the wrong body" is a phrase used to simplify a fairly complex situation in a way that also makes it seem like to trans people it's a metaphysical belief about the nature of the the soul. This is by and large incorrect. What trans people experience isn't delusion. Delusion relies on a belief that contradicts reality or relies on the very shaky ground of the insubstantiated supernatural. What trans people experience is an uncontrolled mental reaction to physical replicatable stimuli to their own bodies. All the cultural stuff is in service to this.

For example - When you call a trans man a woman - what that person is reacting to is your perception of their body making them ground in that physical discomfort. It is like if you had a physical feature you despised, say a physical deformation with a traumatic memory attached, and people kept remarking on it in conversation. While you might be able to walk the world happily temporarily forgetting it exists someone remarking on it is like shoving a mirror in your face. This is why misgendering doesn't have to be intentional to be hurtful.

Our culture has a lot of cultural protections built in for people who have deformaties through birth or accident because we understand universally the effect those things have on the psyche. It's impolite to stare, to mention or exclude people with those features. Gender however is harmless for about 98% of the population. It's remarked upon in the form of pronouns in every conversation where three or more people participate. This is ultimately why that saying "trans women are woman (etc.) " exists. It's not them saying that trans people have any misunderstandings or delusions about the history of their bodies or how they differ from cis women. They have no delusions, they are painfully aware, at all times, exactly how they differ. What that saying is trying to convey is that a trans person should not be treated or categorized by society any differently than cis people of that gender or should be accommodated for being treated as neither gender.

This is also why surgeries are often employed. It's in part to gain unwitting compliance from a population who reacts to physical sex characteristics and pairs that with gender. It's mending how people react to themselves in the mirror as much as it is removing the mirror from the hands of other people. What the removal of the disorder portion of the DSM was about was an acknowledgement that this problem is cultural. It is as much a problem with society's constructions and beliefs around sex and gender as it is a singular person's problem. Just as being gay is only a problem if society responds to it as an undesirable characteristic the issues with being trans are exacerbated by cultural sorting of gender into exclusive categories and people's personal ick about people's surgical and hormonal personal autonomy around their bodies.

The reason trans people have to frame their fight primarily as medically nessisary intervention is largely because of cis people's squeamishness causing them issues of lack of personal freedom to choose how to personally navigate a society not built to manage their specific personal struggles around their physical sex. The problem with society isn't going anywhere most places yet so the individual is assuming the burdens of that and it's well proven that those experiencing this issue are tackling that issue in thoughtful, logic based ways with proven ability to accurately judge risk and reward of their choices on that front.

As a gay trans guy who grew up in the 90's trying to sort out the toxic masculinity/internalized misogyny while fully closeted and being unaware that other trans men exist is a trip. Like doing all that "I have no emotions and refuse anything remotely girl-coded" song and dance kind of made me into what looked from the outside like a "pick-me" for years and I was relentlessly pursued romantically by people I just wanted to hang out and drink beer with. It was isolating and fucked up even if the behaviour soothed the dysphoria.

Had to address the internalized misogyny thing first, realize that was not motivating the trans portion of the issue and then had to work on getting off the toxic sauce that felt so darkly affirming and actually spend time with cis men who had properly deconstructed their own masculinity. Now I'm generally way better off and have a bunch of folk whom I brunch with who gas each other up over cocktails.

I am glad to have been of help!

With the trans community being under so much pressure from outside it really has negative impacts inside the community crushing down the narratives into only the most defensible to cis people. We repeat them so often it's likely we'll internalize that framework and that's not great for us I think. We defend things so often in terms of nessesity and harm prevention and medicalization of the trans experience that trans joy and the nature of creatures to chase the conditions they instinctually know are the most conducive to happiness get lost.

If the cis folk understood the first thing about being trans, really understood, they wouldn't try and stop us from doing what we want. It's only because they get the ick about body modifications that we are forced to be beggars and question ourselves if we are adequately poorly off enough for rescue by a system that really only cares about survival, not quality of life. We shouldn't have to be dying to be worth care or the grace to be ourselves. We don't have to follow any specific playbook or treatment plan. We are not sick. It's hard to resist but don't let them get in your head and make you start looking at yourself as a paitent and not a deserving seeker of comfort and joy. You don't need to find joy perfect and whole to make it worthy of the risk or the cost.

Now extrapolating from our conversation I will make a few leaps. It seems to be that in many ways medical transition for you was revelatory. It makes sense you want to evangelize it. I imagine though it is also something that you've had to self advocate a lot for to pursue - which can be traumatic. Defending your choices to friends, family members and medical professionals to the bar demanded is stressful and there is strain that can impact you long term.

However that fight can twist you out of true. When you see someone who isn't conforming to that model that you had to advocate so hard for maybe it's a little threatening? Maybe to you it has to be unhealthy to do what I am doing because that strain of self advocacy has boxed you into a position where everything you've done doesn't seem valid if it wasn't nessisary. So when I come along with a different situation where I am existing alright without the things you've had to defend as nessisary for your continued success it comes across as a challenge to that hypothesis. Hence why you keep probing for fault with my situation

Maybe you aren't looking at my situation as simply a thing I am doing, you are looking at it as an arguement against the validity of what you are doing

Thing is - and I say this with emphasis - none of the choices I have personally made or the reasons behind them have anything to do with yours. My situation being stable and reasonably healthy doesn't invalidate any of your choices. If you believe what you did is nessisary - it was. It doesn't have to be universally nessisary.

Better yet : who said your transition needs to be necessary to be worthwhile? I certainly didn't. If it was just what you wanted with all your heart - that's enough. You should be able.

There's also this valorizing of my endurance I am picking up on which I think may have been from my statement about how one handles different types of pain. I think you may have taken it as some type of "I'm a fucking bad ass and can endure" sort of sentiment...but that's really not it. What was intended was this -enduring something is handled differently when you are adequately rewarded for your trouble. Yes my experience sucks but I have but when that happens I have adequate reasons to remind myself why exactly why I am doing this. Would I endure this if I were not nigh constantly rewarded for my efforts? No... It's not bravery or self perceived strength that I should hold out because I can or some kind of deep seated transphobia. I don't believe that sacrificing for love is some noble thing. It's literally just the offsets have been simply judged worth the cost. The Mennonite woman is doing what she does out of an assertion that she is stronger and more moral than other people who have made different choices. That's, pardon the language, self aggrandizing bull shit.

The reaction some have trying to convince me of what I am doing as being wrong in some way is something I encounter specifically with binary trans folk who have been through the ringer or who are insecure to the point where I am pretty sure what they are doing is a trauma response. However just because it's a potential trauma response doesn't mean it is cool. Think of it this way - In trying to stess test my transition choices by finding fault this way binary trans people are doing what cis people did to them just in reverse - The requesting or coercing of trans people to defend their transition choices. Enbies are sometimes looked at as the weak flank of the arguements that trans people make to society for the right to accommodation. These forms of Enbyphobia aren't often discussed because it's acknowledged that these issues come from pressure from outside the community. A united front pushing things as a nessesity is what gets traction with cis people. Edge cases, nuanced situations and people who do not neatly fit into that narrative sometimes become targets because we are inconvenient so we get hit on multiple flanks having to justify our choices to binary trans people and cis people. It's that shared experience more than anything that keeps me solidly identifying as non-binary rather than binary trans. It's also a personal declaration that I need not conform to anybody else's views of masculinity and acknowledging/accepting rather than rejecting this space I occupy as a possible end goal.

There is again quite an assumption here mainly that my partner somehow asked me to not transition, that again I am somehow being coerced to stay by a domineering voice.

This was a discussion, a frank one, where I clarified with him what the potential outcomes of a medical transition were in terms of our relationship and decided on my own. It was not something he was comfortable asking me to do on his behalf and even after making my decision he took some time to feel comfortable on his end with it because his concerns and lack of self confidence of being "worth it". People have approached him in the past with the attitude that he's doing me a disservice and it ruins him for at least a week.

You are also conflating my comment about medical transitioning being a no brainer with transitioning itself. I have still transitioned socially and have been impacted in losing career advantages, family and friends for my choices. All transitions carry risks regardless of the medical component and when you frame it in this way where it focuses on medical transition as the majority of the risk or defining portion of transistion it implies that non-medical transition doesn't count as transition. Any transition should be approached as potentially having serious reprocussions. In many cases of my friends who have medically transitioned the decision to medically transition was ultimately a lot less difficult than the decision to socially transition because by the time they got there they'd already experienced bigotry and yes, their lives have gotten markedly better since... But they also do not pity me and that is the tone of what you give off here (particularly in quoting a book about a womam dealing with religious trauma and internalized homophobia) the sense that you aren't simply empathizing or sympathizing with the aspects of my choices which are difficult but that you veiw those choices as harmful or misguided.

I am glad that you found happiness and comfort in your transistion. It's obviously a great fit. Maybe rethink your approach to non-binary folx as it seems like you bring a little overmuch of your personal baggage with you.

I appreciate the apology. As a suggestion it's best to ask clarifying questions before handing down judgements about what counts as healthy for someone or offering advice. As a long term non-medically transitioning person I receive a lot of unsolicited advice about how to live my life from people whose circumstances are much more clear cut. It comes across often as quite condescending when someone extrapolates from a very small snippet of personal information that mine were not carefully thought out and reasoned choices that are made daily.

The choice to transition medically isn't a simple medical question and in my mind should not be out of hand treated as if it were a straightforward form of medical treatment to restore function. The question we should be asking ourselves is always "are the decisions I am making wholistic towards the outcome of making my life the best it can be." For a lot of people the decision to medically transition is a no brainer, there is nothing keeping you but for some it comes with a slew of either/or sacrifices that impact other valuable aspects of the human experience. For some of us there isn't a good solution without pain of some kind and the only choice we can make is what is preferable to endure. The reasons other people have to make are their own to make and not seeking "treatment" is not a metric of whether they take their situation "seriously".

There is a very big difference between how people carry pain endured for little to no reason versus pain that is the willing price paid for something cherished.

Just a gentle suggestion that not physically transitioning for your partner's preferences is probably not healthy or OK, I know it's difficult and you have to figure that out yourself - but I encourage you to seek counseling and find a way to help your partner see that being trans is a genetic and medical condition that for your health and well-being you really shouldn't ignore and forego treatment on, esp. for something like their preferences. Not all trans experience is the same, but it's probable that medical transition would significantly improve your life.

In the nicest possible way - don't. This is not your call and this is not good advice. The relationship is 16 years old and a been a constant sense of comfort through a number of life's traumas and bumpy roads. I would happily take a bullet for him any day of the week and my choices are not founded on nothing. He can't help having a phenotype preference any more than I can and the decision I made was in regards to a wholistic assessment of what my values are. He is very aware of the nature of transness and your assumption that what works for you is the best path forward is not welcome.

I accept the conditions under which I live as imperfect but preferrable by far then losing a partner with whom I share my burdens.