Cowbee

How do you start? How does it "build?" How does this translate into reality?

Reality doesn't run on 40k Ork magic logic, ideas don't become material reality if you believe hard enough.

Yes and central planning is inherently unstable and inefficient. So you're back to my original points that he doesn't know what hes talking about.

Throughout this entire comment chain you have never once managed to explain how central planning is "inherently unstable." Rather than Marx, it's evident you don't know what you're talking about.

Again you dont understand the implications of his system because you dont even know what metrics to use to advocate for it. Personally any system that optimizes for gdp or manipulated approval ratings as a measure of a healthy and fluroishing society design has lost the thread and doesnt know how to live.

AES countries don't "optimize for GDP." The USSR and PRC both doubled life expectencies, over tripled literacy rates to 99%+, dramatically expanded access to healthcare and education (being free in the USSR), saw drastic reductions in poverty, hunger, and homelessness. GDP grew alongside drastic improvements in key quality of life metrics.

Additionally, you have not proven how approval rates have been "manipulated," your reasoning just being anti-China sentiment on your part because you don't trust the "sneaky Chinese." Please cite a source or drop the implied racism.

As i told you earlier you want to convince me tell what you want to accomplish with your government and then we can discuss the metrics youd use. But so far you've demonstrated either: you're absolutely clueless about how systems fail/get corrupted, what the metrics you're using actually measure, and how they translate into behavior of the people living under those systems.

You haven't offered any explanation for a single point.

Essentially you've demonstrated you want to live in an authoritarian dictatorship. Hard pass.

Not at all, I want to live in a democratic state with public ownership and central planning.

I recommend many. Blackshirts is just the most relevant both for understanding fascism and contextualizing AES, as well as being more accessible than Marxist texts. I encourage liberals and left-leaning people to read theory constantly. Heck, here's an "intro to Marxism reading list" I commented earlier today that another user requested I make.

As i said originally marx didnt understand systems or people. His conclusion that its easier to seize centralized systems is 100% correct but he also advocates for such a system to replace the system he identifies as unstable. Which is logically hilarious foolish and in no way ensures a better outcome for workers. As the chinese im sure would tell you if they were not petrified of saying anything negative about the prc.

He advocates for public ownership and central planning, entirely different from private ownership and internal planning.

Like i said it takes months of effort to deprogram someone like youself and frankly its not worth the effort. Carry on soldier. Ill have the bandages ready when you invariably get bloodied.

Like i said it takes months of effort to deprogram someone like youself and frankly its not worth the effort. Carry on soldier. Ill have the bandages ready when you invariably get bloodied.

You made up definitions and can't even quote me. You were never in good-faith.

Your response shows you may have read things but you dont understand them or systems. The fact your think PRC actually has that level approval invalidate literally anything you said. I dont bother reading the drivel you spouted after that. I may glance over it in the future.

So your refusal to read or provide any evidence outweighs my ability to read and provide evidence? Absurd, and frankly racist.

Things you need to understand before you step on to the stage with me: metrics and measurements are only meaningful if you understand how they were measured. Which you clearly dont if you're spouting gdo and prc approval rates as a proof points.

Let me know what numbers you can find otherwise.

As i said originally marx didnt

Didn't what?

You made up definitions and can't even quote me. You were never in good-faith.

I specifically spelled out my call to action earlier in this very comment chain. Organizing with leftist parties like PSL and FRSO, revolutionary parties. Revolution is necessary, electoralism cannot work.

None of your examples started from a vaguely functional democratic state. For all the fawning over Cuba, somehow they are a big source of refugees.

Most of these refugees were historically land owning slavers, fascists, and Capitalists.

The Soviet Union fell apart under well understood conditions that their flavor of 'communism' did not fix.

Communism fixed a great deal of problems with Russia, why do you believe the USSR was dissolved?

China has an awful lot of forced labor, laborers stuck dorming in factories, and capitalist billionaires for a 'communist' state, and they have an ethno state with some other problematic human rights behaviors.

The PRC is a Socialist Market Economy. The model is described as a birdcage, the CPC allows markets to naturally develop but only along their guidelines, and increases ownership as competition creates these new monopolist syndicates. Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism is a good article going over China’s economic model. The CPC has the power it has as a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, it needs that power to maintain supremacy over their bourgeoisie. Communism is achieved by degree, not decree.

While they may have been better than prior regimes in their contexts, I don't think the end state in any of those is better than the current state of affairs in the US.

Why are you comparing developing countries to the current Imperialist hegemon? Do you think if you adopt Socialism, everything is magically fixed overnight? Have I ever implied that?

A good primer is Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" an excellent article that goes over materialist examinations of AES states vs idealist examinations. Another good reference is Blackshirts and Reds. AES is by no means perfect, but it does and did work.

I can explain what went right and what went wrong with the USSR, including the events leading to its dissolution and their material basis and what would be similar and what would be different if the US went Socialist, if you want, but the short response is that the Material Conditions of 2024 US Empire are fundamentally and entirely different to 1917 Tsarist Russia, and to compare them 1 to 1 is false.

You made up definitions and can't even quote me. You were never in good-faith.

tribal societies with conservatives(you call them reactionaries):

BEEP! Wrong. Conservativism is not the same as beimg reactionary, though similar.

there's that famous uncontacted Island tribe, sentinalese, who kills anyone who attempts to contact them, that's pretty reactionary.

That's not what reactionary means. Reactionary refers to trying to turn the clock back to an earlier point in economic development.

are you using some weird gotcha definition for reactionary and that's why you're pretending not to know about conservative backlash against change in tribal societies?

I am using the correct definition.

completely irrelevant. we're talking about why they are reactionary.

You just explained precisely why it's relevant.

there are several societies like that existing right now that resist change and have reactionary movements that have nothing to do with capitalism.

Never said reactionary movements are only due to Capitalism.

in your comments and the memes you are defending.

Quote me.

I addressed your "supporting evidence." It turns out it very easy to have supporting evidence if you pretend deliberately being arrested is the same as being brutalized over a protest. You do not address that. "They're different but actually the same. Therefore both sides are the same."

I did not say they were the same. I said I recognize where they are similar.

It turns out if you define fascism such that everyone in the government are the same party contributing to it, then both sides are equally fascist. "Dictator day one" is the same as "small business" because the economics are the fascism. Are ridiculous tax cuts for the wealthy the same? "Yes, both sides are the same because the Dems are not stopping it." Oh. Should we vote against more tax cuts by hoping the facade that the "Dems" (Uniparty, actually, muh both sides) are against it? "No, because of reasons.

You are drawing false-equivalences that I did not draw. Again, what is fascism? You haven't answered that. You just continued to make the same assertions.

"They should ignore Uncommitted, listen to their wife instead, throw their ballot in the trash. I'm not urging anyone to vote in any way, just discussing economics."

Uncommitted is one group, and evem Uncommitted didn't endorse Harris. Abandon Harris has endorsed Stein, for example. Why is Uncommitted the group you listen to? Why not the majority of Arab-Americans, who are going to Stein? I am telling you that voting will not stop or even slow fascism.

"Far right violence is rising under Biden because of disparity." Oh. Should we have a president that maintains a facade (muh both sides Duopoly, of course) of being against far-right violence or one that encourages it. "Actually both are the same."

We should stop thinking either will slow it down and instead focus on organizing.

Yes, your arguments are very serious and you are the only good faith participant here.

Now you're making sense!