this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2024
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[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 202 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

The Crew’s servers, scheduled for Sunday March 31, represents a “gray area” in videogame consumer law that he would like to challenge.
..
I think the argument to make is that The Crew was sold under a perpetual license, not a subscription, so we were being sold a good, not a service
..
the seller rendered the game unusable and deprived it of all value after the point of sale.

Goddam right, that's not a grey area IMO, that shit ought to be illegal. Maybe there should be a term, like let's say 90 years maybe?

[–] Dran_Arcana@lemmy.world 109 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

My personal favorite is the "companies are obligated to support it forever, or open source the server software hosted by a third party, hosting paid for up front for at least a year."

They get to keep my money forever don't they?

[–] Lodra@programming.dev 43 points 2 years ago (4 children)

While I love the spirit of this idea, it gets complicated fast. Worlds adrift is a great example. The game’s server was created using some closed source libraries with a paid license. So when the owning company (Bossa Studios?) went under, they were unable to open source it.

A law like this would effectively kill all licensed software that isn’t a full product. I do agree though; we need a solution

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 18 points 2 years ago (1 children)

When the initially licensed the library, they should’ve included distributed binary copies. That may have allowed them to release the source for their game alongside the binary of the library.

[–] Lodra@programming.dev 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

An interesting idea but it’s not possible with all languages. E.g. golang. But probably not the case with worlds adrift. I’m guessing it’s more of an incentive problem for the other company. No more revenue = why bother?

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago

I think it’s like when a tv show doesn’t bother to negotiate the music rights for syndication and then they can’t air it anymore if the audio can’t be removed.

“What happens in 10 years?” Isn’t always a priority. Also, I’m sure that makes the price go up.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

Also, you could use CGo, but if you know golang, then you know why that’s not always a viable option.

[–] pimento64@sopuli.xyz 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A law like this would effectively kill all licensed software that isn’t a full product

What I'm hearing is: this law needs to be a constitutional amendment.

[–] Lodra@programming.dev 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hmm I may be confused. Do you believe that software companies shouldn’t be allowed to build and sell libraries? I.e. They should only be allowed to sell full products, ready for an end user?

[–] pimento64@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yes.

I am aware that this would kill SaaS overnight, that's an intended feature.

[–] Lodra@programming.dev 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Fair enough regarding sass, though I disagree with the opinion.

But I’m asking about builders of partial software. For example, consider a single developer that builds a really great library for handling tables. It displays a grid, displays text in cells, maybe performs some operations between cells, etc. On its own, this software is useless but is very useful for other people to build other products. Should it be illegal to sell this software?

[–] eluvatar@programming.dev 1 points 2 years ago

I agree with you.

Though I would say that the grid software on its own IS useful. It's useful to developers, otherwise they wouldn't use it. Saying it's useless is like saying a hammer is useless because it's not a house, it's only good for building a house (among other things).

[–] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

IIRC Bossa tried to open source it but they used a license for Spatial OS, which provided the backbone of their game. They were unable to make a stable game without it and opted to not open source it. But they were also in an early access that would probably provide an exception for a game closing down.

Bossa did leave the island creator active and has spun up Lost Skies on the same engine, which wouldn't be possible if they open sourced WA.

Ultimately the issue should be GaaS and MMOs are offerings service while other games are goods which have an artificial expiry date. This is a good test of software judication.

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[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm fine with that, wanna keep it out of public hands, nut up and sell your stuff

[–] Lodra@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago

Still difficult in that example. Bossa can’t force the other company to do anything.

[–] rikudou@lemmings.world 20 points 2 years ago

I'd tie its length to copyright length. Maybe they would fight Disney when they try to raise it again.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 19 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Or, maybe don’t force online requirement, and allow p2p. Or, better yet, open source the server now that it’s shut down and release a patch to specify where to connect.

[–] BarrierWithAshes@kbin.social 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Blacklight Retribution did this for their console version. Wish they woulda did it for the PC version but whatever.

[–] Mango@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

😭

I miss it so much.

[–] circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org 16 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Imagine buying a T-shirt, and the manufacturer, without your prior knowledge or consent, could somehow render your shirt unwearable -- that's effectively what's happening here. The only "gray area" might be that ultimately you don't own a copy of the game anyway (since digital copies are effectively leased -- a whole other issue unto itself), but regardless: more power to this lawsuit. Seriously shady shit getting tacitly accepted lately.

[–] cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

"we lost our license to print this brands logo on our shirts, so you have to give it back now"

Smh

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[–] leave_it_blank@lemmy.world 66 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I got the game for free, and I've been playing it since every three months for a few days, just driving around. I bought the sequel, but it sucked.

I never used the multiplayer component, I treated it like a single player game. And now it's going to vanish? This whole world? They can't be serious. This isn't a multiplayer only title, it's single player with an optional mp stacked upon it. At least put an offline patch out... Assholes!

But that's the crux with only buying licenses. Or games with always online requirements. I hope fans find a way to crack the online code!!

[–] yamanii@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

Yeah, no one is arguing games shouldn't have online, just that they continue to work after the devs are done with them, have an End of Life plan like the late Avengers game, or the gacha Megaman X Dive that got an offline version sold on steam and consoles.

[–] Artyom@lemm.ee 40 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I'm all for improving consumer rights in the videogame industry, but I'm more than a little amazed anyone's willing to put up a fight for The Crew of all things.

[–] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago

He's rather critical of the game. He just really hates when games are lost forever.

[–] frunch@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago

Seems more to do with the way things line up--it's a perfect example of a physical and digital game getting permanently shut down without any sort of refund or compensation to the buyers of the game. It sounds like it's about setting precedent so people will have a better idea of how this kinda stuff is going to work in the future.

[–] yamanii@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

He just likes driving around and nothing more, it's his podcast/tourism game, but also the perfect one since it happened after he started this fight for preservation and it's not sold as service but as a product, unlike MMOs.

[–] LunchEnjoyer@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago

Don't forget we have to get comfortable not owning our games guys... This is Ubisoft showing us how that works..

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This would be a huge precedent for video-game preservation. IANAL but this would mean one of these two:

  • service cannot be shut down without release of server source code
  • whole game need to be reclassified as software service

Seems like the latter would be an easy loophole tbh.

[–] nature_man@lemmy.world 17 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Also NAL, but it seems like they aren't arguing for server functionality but rather just the ability to play offline at all, which opens up the third option of requiring games to be patched to remove sever requirements if being shut down, in any case this will be a fascinating case to follow, and I hope they go through with the lawsuit.

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[–] ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 24 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Now also make it illegal to sell physical copies of games that need day 0 patches/downloads to make them work.

I still kick on my original nes every now and then. 20 years from now when you dig out your old copy of borderlands 3 and there's no longer a download available, you think you'll get to play through the game?

[–] yamanii@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

This is why his videos about this issue are great, he dismantles every single argument against it like "just buy physical", The Crew has physical versions, they won't work just like the digital one.

[–] NaoPb@eviltoast.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

True. Though there really are NES games that should've received a patch if that were possible.

[–] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (7 children)

yeah, but how rare is that compared to today, where almost every bloody game is ridiculously broken and needing major day 1 patches... an day 2 patches, and day 7 patches.

[–] NaoPb@eviltoast.org 1 points 2 years ago
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[–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Now also make it illegal to sell physical copies of games that need day 0 patches/downloads to make them work.

"Sorry customers, we're no longer selling physical releases. Court mandated that, our hands are tied."

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[–] B0NK3RS@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago

Stuff like this is always welcome.

[–] ohlaph@lemmy.world 20 points 2 years ago

That aldo happened to Bomberman. To play locally, it needs to connect to a server. The servers are no longer active, and as a result, the game isn't playable.

[–] Wodge@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This is all well and good, but what of all those MMORPGs that got shut down?

The Crew is a bizarre game to do this kinda treatment for, since the sequel is very similar to the first, less terrible crime syndicate story, more planes and other nonsense. It's also pretty middling, car handling is really weird, and the lack of rear view mirrors looks pretty weird nowadays.

I'm guessing it's car licensing that's causing the shutdown. It's what happened to Forza Horizon 1 and 2. If that is the case, this game isn't going to get open sourced ever. Also: why didn't this guy go after Microsoft to make them playable again?

[–] PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Horizon can be played offline. When Microsoft bites the dust, I can still pop in a Forza horizon 2 DVD into my 360 and play it.

[–] SomethingBurger@jlai.lu 4 points 2 years ago

Realistically, when Microsoft bites the dust, both your FH2 DVD and your 360 will have stopped working decades ago.

[–] yamanii@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You just made it look even worse for Ubisoft since the first 3 Horizon games work offline and everyone that bought them can still play it just fine, you just can't buy them right now.

[–] p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 2 years ago

Not sure why he's being recognized by a Half-Life series of his. I discovered and watched him for his deep dives of old crappy PC games.

[–] BustinJiber@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago
[–] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

Blessed Ross Scott

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