this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
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Wizards of the Coast denies, then confirms, that Magic: The Gathering promo art features AI elements | When will companies learn?::undefined

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[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 74 points 2 years ago (8 children)

I had to step away from Magic and Wizards after the Pinkerton incident, and everything they’ve been doing since just affirms how shitty a company they are.

I didn’t bud light the cards I already own, and I still occasionally play with friends, but I haven’t spent a dime on MtG since, and I may never again.

In the grand scheme of things it means shit. Capitalism gonna capitalism, and ultimately, nearly all capitalist companies are shit. I couldn’t function in this society if I stopped using or spending money with every reprehensible company.

But with Wizards, I felt, “you know what, I just can’t do this anymore.”

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

"No ethical consumption under capitalism."

But you can at least do what you can to lessen consumption, however small.

[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago

Absolutely agree. I do what I can to reduce my own consumption.

It’s not a huge thing, but I ride my bike to work as much as possible, try to repair and reuse, thrift shop where I can, and make choices like not giving WotC money.

[–] mossy_@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

WotC going nose-blind got me to switch from D&D to Pathfinder. Not sure there's an equivalent for trading card games, unless yugioh became more comprehensible in the last fifteen years

[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Pokémon.

They were the original creators of the Pokemon TCG, and when TPC decided they’d start printing the cards without the involvement of WOtC, they responded with some “scorched earth” nonsense. These guys have needed to touch grass for years.

That being said, I’m surprised there’s no open source TCG.

[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

An open tcg would be pretty fun and interesting. I’d definitely give that a go if it existed.

[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Awhile back, I pushed around the idea of a spaceship TCG based on my experience in EVE Online (speaking of out-of-touch companies), but I never went anywhere with it. The idea of having a command structure like MTCG Commander, and the rest of your deck being built to protect it. The capital would only take damage after all support ships were destroyed, sort of like attacking the player directly in YGO. Using planet cards like energy/mana, like you’re harvesting resources from those planets to built ships for your fleet

[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

That sounds super fun. I’d play that!

[–] Laurentide@pawb.social 2 points 2 years ago

That sounds fun. I had a similar idea once, but it was mechs protecting a massive rolling city with its convoy of industrial vehicles. Many of the game mechanics would be enabled by specific vehicles that were vulnerable to attack.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 3 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The problem with an open source TCG is that you need a way to balance it, which can be hard with a distributed group of designers not in communication with each other. You definitely couldn't design something in a paper format; maybe as a computer card game.

[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I’m sorry, but that’s not true at all.

It’s not hard to balance it if you treat it like open source software. There’s still an owner that controls what is “official”. If you want to suggest changes, you make a pull request, as you would with software development, which either gets denied or approved by the owner of the official project. If you don’t like the direction the official game is going, you can “fork” it, call it a fork of the original if the license requires it, and you are now the owner of that fork, able to make whatever changes you’d like.

Open Source does not, at all, imply a lack of control. Blender is open source, but the Blender Foundation still has very strong control over what ends up in the codebase.

To that end, you can suggest balancing changes to the game project, and the owner of the project can approve or deny it.

As far as a paper or digital game goes, either one works. If someone wanted to print the cards and sleeve them, they can. We did that for proxy cards in Pokemon.

If someone wanted to create a higher-quality card, they could. Distribution might be difficult, but I can absolutely see someone selling a set of these cards on Etsy. That would be a challenge for whoever is interested in doing so.

The same goes for digital. The official project wouldn’t even have its own game, it would leave that to the creativity of the community and whoever is interested in doing that, and those projects could be listed by the project owner.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It’s not hard to balance it if you treat it like open source software.

It is even if you balance in an open source environment. "Closed source" successful games still have to invest substantial funds to playtesting. In an open source system, you are developing in the open. This is going to split the game already into beta and stable. You also probably aren't going to get individual cards approved since you need to design around the interactions between cards.

If you don’t like the direction the official game is going, you can “fork” it, call it a fork of the original if the license requires it, and you are now the owner of that fork, able to make whatever changes you’d like.

So now you have multiple versions of the game floating around with sets of approved cards. Unlike M:tG, these sets are developed to not be compatible and it may be difficult to figure out what sets are legal in the version you are playing.

To that end, you can suggest balancing changes to the game project, and the owner of the project can approve or deny it.

And you still have the development process, which is hard to fix once you print cardboard.

If someone wanted to create a higher-quality card, they could.

I'm not talking about foils, but categorically better cards. You are going to have card developers with a vested interest to make sure their cards get played, and that generally means making cards at a higher power level.

[–] Whom@midwest.social 2 points 2 years ago (13 children)

It's worth mentioning that while developing in the open is the standard in the git era, it's not a requirement for open source and for a project that would benefit doing otherwise they could easily just do big releases with the source available and the proper licensing.

That said, I think this is overcomplicating things. You could simply have a nonprofit organizational body who designs in-house just as Wizards does and releases the final product into the public domain or under Creative Commons licenses. Unofficial cards compatible with your game will more or less be the same as they are for Magic: optional modules that are clearly not part of your vision for the game and so playgroups must choose if they want to play the game your organization produces or an expansion to it.

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[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think a lot of what you’re saying is coming from the perspective of a profit motive. That’s certainly one way of looking at it, but I personally wouldn’t start something like this with a profit motive. Personally, the “cool factor” alone would be motivation enough for me, but this would require the game as a whole operating in a way other TCGs do not.

I'm not talking about foils, but categorically better cards. You are going to have card developers with a vested interest to make sure their cards get played, and that generally means making cards at a higher power level.

I also was talking about overall card quality, not specifically foils. Other than that, power creep is always going to be a thing, regardless of the motives of the project owner.

But the nice thing about open source is that if you don’t believe it’s a good idea, you don’t have to participate.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Other than that, power creep is always going to be a thing, regardless of the motives of the project owner.

But it is a major problem for closed source systems which can be made worse if open source methods are used on cardboard. Is someone going to want to keep playing a game when they buy some boosters but find out that some of the people they play with won't play with those cards? Even worse, there isn't a uniform way to define formats?

But the nice thing about open source is that if you don’t believe it’s a good idea, you don’t have to participate.

But no one else is participating either. There are fan made TCG's, but none of them adopted the open source model. There is one body that designs cards and I don't see that changing. Even then, the trading or collecting part of that hobby goes away; they become Living Card Games instead without the collectable nature of more traditional distribution systems

[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If no one’s done it, we don’t know if it’ll actually work, we can just theorize. I don’t see the harm in anyone trying, and I don’t particularly care for defeatism.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This isn't defeatism, but pointing out potential flaws in a system being developed. If designers can't address potential fatal flaws, the system won't progress.

[–] sebinspace@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Alright, well I can’t be expected to have all the right answers. What do you suggest?

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 years ago

I think you can have a community designed game, but you are going to have an internal organization to it.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 years ago

An idea I’ve had for a while would be to have some kind of direct democratic method for designing new sets or cards, and for rebalancing or banning them if need be. I think it would be doable if you could achieve a critical mass of people. The custom magic subs on Reddit could basically form a functional game on their own.

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[–] TAG@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

I have heard good things about Flesh and Blood TCG. From what I understand, the story behind it is similar to Pathfinder: a WotC partner got pissed at WotCs shenanigans and decided to make their own game.

There are also a ton of great non-collectible deck construction games. Unfortunately, they tend to fail fairly quickly because it is not profitable for local stores to host events. If you want a Magic-like one, I recommend Epic Card Game. It has a free-to-start app for Android, iOS, PC and possibly Mac.

[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I’m not a ttrpg player, but I followed the OGL nonsense, and that put a pretty bad taste in my mouth. And then they just kept being assholes.

Right now, I don’t need to dump hundreds of dollars into a new different tcg. As it is I’m happy playing with my friends using the cards that I already have.

[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

OotL here, what Pinkerton incident?

[–] Eyelessoozeguy@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Some guy ordered a booster box for pack openings got a set that wasnt released yet. Wotc sent Pinkerton after him to retrieve the product. And yes the same organization of mercs for hire from Red Dead Redemption.

[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 6 points 2 years ago

Fucking mob behavior, what the hell!

[–] Kyoyeou@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Same here, haven't bought anything since the DnD set, and to be honest I only play commander and play less and less and basically only use one single political deck

[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

All we tend to play is commander as well, and my wife and I have a good variety of decks to keep it fun/interesting when we do play, which honestly isn’t very often anymore.

We used to play weekly. Last year we played maybe half a dozen times.

[–] LaunchesKayaks@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

My parents gave me all of their hella old cards. I don't think I've ever bought cards since I was given so many.

Meanwhile two of my friends can't afford basic shit because they splurge on cards.

[–] harsh3466@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That’s awesome. I used to have a good collection of hella old cards (I started playing when the game launched), sold them and got out of the game for a good decade or so, then got back in.

I won’t sell my cards this time around. I’ll hold on to them for the times we do play.

[–] LaunchesKayaks@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

I think my oldest cards are from alpha? Maybe beta? I know they were bought right when the game came out. I don't play much because the cards can't hold up in a game against current cards. Shit's just too OP nowadays lol

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[–] drdiddlybadger@pawb.social 53 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Fuck it. Not buying MTG stuff again. Only a matter of time until cards are wholesale AI generated at which point you could just generate the card your damn self.

[–] Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That sounds pretty cool too.

[–] thehatfox@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago (2 children)

MTG cards can already get pretty wild, to the point that some card combinations almost rewrite the rules of the game.

I hate to think what sort of mad abilities LLM hallucinations would create.

[–] match@pawb.social 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)
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[–] Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 years ago

I remember seeing someone making a set a little while ago. As far as balance, you'd probably have to crowdsource it.

[–] grahamja@reddthat.com 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I think all of the card games with random pulls are a bit of a ripoff.

The RPG crowd is the lead in pirating or flat out making their own rules and barely spending money. They just need rules and dice. You need a small group, and there really aren't tournaments so you can play it however you want.

Table top war gaming in the middle is being filled with indy 3d printed miniatures and home made rules that can take over local scenes pretty easily. 40k still dominates the space, only because most people act like its the only game (it is by far the most common already) and you can buy the minis from most any hobby store. The tournaments are huge, and sometimes the biggest tournaments even dictate the rules just as much as the game seller and most people want to play "tournament legal" armies only.

MTG and other card games are the only thing keeping most hobby stores alive and prints money. it is entirely on for whatever reason, people just want to buy another booster. It is as bad as gambling if not worse, you don't even know what you are buying. It should be even easier to pirate and print your own resources to play card games but somehow it is a huge money maker because as always, people flock to the largest group of gamers in their space.

Indy RPG and Skirmish tabletop games make boat loads of money for small groups of people and it is easy for them to run circles around larger game manufacturers. Things like 40k and MTG where there is such a huge following of people who might not necessarily care and just want to go to massive tournaments it is much harder to challenge those established followings.

[–] apprehensively_human@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 years ago

It is as bad as gambling if not worse, you don't even know what you are buying.

To be fair, booster packs are designed primarily to be used to play in limited formats like draft or constructed. People buying boosters to try and pull expensive cards are doing themselves a disservice by not just buying or trading for the singles they want.

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[–] Khrux@ttrpg.network 7 points 2 years ago

They are specifically claiming that they were unaware and it happened due to the artist using the built-in AI aids in Photoshop, which is against their policy.

I actually trust WotC on this depite despising basically every other decision over the past year that they have made. They have repeatedly made their stance on not wanting AI content clear but individual designers and artists are easily equipped to just ignore that and only get caught when they don't clean up the obvious AI errors afterwards. WotC need to be fair better at internally vetting their art and I recon they are with card art or art that is making its way to books, but art from marketing and other adjacent areas is slipping through the cracks.

Initially denying the art being AI generated is actually probably the biggest tell that they didn't intend it. If they make a policy against it and get obviously caught, it's totally illogical to deny it and damage their reputation further, but if they trust the artist initially, then they have grounds to deny it until they vet it or the artist owns up, which is probably what happened here.


Hasbro on the other hand only care about one thing, the line going up to their investors can cum. Currently the only reason that WotC has such a strong anti AI content policy is because the heart of their content is about design, from their artists to game designer, and many of the people who hold these roles are beloved voices in the community and if their jobs are at risk, they'll be loud and clear about it, and we need to hear them and support them when Hasbro try to encoach on this policy, and make it clear that any cost-cutting from AI generated content will cause enough outcry and boycotting that their stock price goes down.

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[–] Lols@lemm.ee 47 points 2 years ago (1 children)

i can excuse hiring mercenaries to rough a guy up for leaking cards, but using AI art is a step too far!

[–] Rubanski@lemm.ee 3 points 2 years ago

They sent the actual Pinkertons!

[–] s38b35M5@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Just a quick look at the gauge should be enough.

[–] djsoren19@yiffit.net 18 points 2 years ago

It was, there was a ton of outcry because of their denial of such blatant AI art. One prominent MTG artist even ended their partnership with Wizards over the lie, which I think is ultimately what caused them to come out and admit it.

They also made a promise not to use AI art like two weeks ago, so now a lot of other artists are unsure if they want to continue their partnership with Wizards after being lied to. Make no mistake, if the artists weren't willing to put their careers on the line to force this apology, Wizards would have just lied and moved on.

[–] Buttons@programming.dev 5 points 2 years ago

I guarantee that image came from Midjourney. All its images have the same surreal realistic style.

[–] rwhitisissle@lemy.lol 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Wizards/Hasbro hires contractors to produce art for their game. They make virtually none of it in house. It's most likely they neither know nor care who or what produces art for MTG. Besides, they produce so much content in a year, some of it has to be AI/ML generated, so this is incredibly unsurprising. At this point, MTG is starting to enshittify by dumping out product as quickly as possible. Their quality control and playtesting has gone out the window. Most of their recent sets are pretty poorly received in the limited magic space. I don't personally care about the use of AI art, but I can say that for money making enterprises, they'll eventually have more and more art produced via ML over time, and eventually they'll use ML to design sets in some capacity, as well. Right now, people are upset over it or annoyed by it on some quasi-ethical grounds of "stealing from artists by not compensating them for the work they produced being used to train the models." But it's going to eventually become the norm, purely on the basis that they aren't going to lose any money from using ML to produce art and they're going to save money by doing it.

[–] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

This is like the third time they've been caught doing it too.

[–] TheBat@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

What's up with MTGs being cunts?

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