This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can't be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off, but I'm not a lineman or some sort of civil engineer or whatever.
But if I were a lawmaker, I'd be on the phone with the Germans, who have 1.2M of these connected, and figuring out if and how they're doing it safely. But lawmakers seem to be somehow incapable of reaching out to people who know fuck all about anything.
The microinverters stop feeding in if grid goes down. So it's safe.
Hmmm, I wonder how this would affect things in the future where this is widely used.
I.E. if you had both widespread solar usage and some kind of large blackout, would it be hard to get all your solar back online because it's all in the "waiting for the grid" state? And the grid can't come back at capacity because all the solar it's expecting is out?
I assume people smarter than me have this figured out, but just a random thought if anyone knows more.
Not just solar - most grid-scale generators have this problem. "Black start" is the search term you want to look for, and Practical Engineering has a good video on the subject.
Basically, only a relative few grid generators are actually capable of black starts. The rest need the grid to be already functioning before they can tie in and start producing.
They are commonly used in many parts of Europe.
If you drop some Tariff percentages, we might be willing to advise.
In the US, reaching out to other countries for advice, even if they're our allies, seems to be viewed as treason. At a minimum, seems like treason against "real" masculinity, on which American culture is fueled, especially now.
'Why don't you just stop to ask for directions?'
'I know where I'm going!!1!1111!1!!!!1!'
🙄
I had a chat about this with a friend who works for the national grid (UK).
Apparently the problem is keeping the grid balanced and stable. Basically, the grid struggles to react fast, so they plan ahead. Things like large scale solar can provide predictions on output. Home solar can't.
When clouds pass over an area it can cause slumps and surges in the local grid. The more home solar, the worse it gets. The current grid is designed to work top down, with predictable changes in demand. It needs upgrading to deal with large scale bidirectional flows.
The plug in units are (potentially) even more ropey. If used properly, they are no worse than normal home solar. Unfortunately, being cheaper, there are worries over the microinverters not shutting down. Either due to the manufacturer cheaping out, or turning on an "off grid" mode.
There are also worries about overloading household circuits. Back feeding bypasses the household circuit breakers and RCDs. They could overload wall wiring and cause fires, or stop an RCD tripping, allowing for a person to be shocked.
I don't know how much this would apply to the American Grid, but I would imagine it would be worse. Your grid is older and larger. You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
Ugh, not Germany. Try the Netherlands. In Germany it is a huge bureaucratic undertaking to put energy back into the grid. In the Netherlands (as far as I know) your meter just runs backwards and at the end of the year you just pay the difference or nothing if it's lower than the year before.
In Germany your electricity provider pays you for what you put back into the grid. But not as much as pulling out is worth. That's why almost all solar solutions in Germany are either small or need a battery because using the energy yourself is worth more than sharing it with everyone.
There are people in the Netherlands that have the system you describe. This is pretty rare though due to the massive push for new energy meters that's been going on for the last 10 years or so. And with good reason: lots of the old meters people had were pretty unsafe and unreliable. For most people, having automatic usage reports going to both them and the electricity provider far outweighs the downsides.
Most of us are in a similar situation as Germany. We have smart meters that allow you to provide power back to the grid and this is currently very profitable. However, from 2027 onwards they are (mostly) getting rid of the profits this brings the consumer, in order to make the grid more stable and also for other, less clear (most likely energy company and government spending related) reasons.
As someone who's worked in the grid provider field for a bit I'm not necessarily against this change; peak power surges due to lots of people selling of their excess solar power production is a huge problem that's making the energy transition that much more difficult. Even in local grids, we're starting to have to use massive power cables to be able to handle this. This brings with it a lot of extra costs and permit nonsense, making the life of the grid manager that much more difficult.
I wish people would take this upcoming deadline to start electrying more things in their house. But if my parents are anything to go by, all they'll do is complain about losing their golden goose that they've profited from for over 10 years. They could get an electric car instead of their nonsense plug-in hybrid, they could electrify their heating needs, they could install a home battery and so much more. I know it costs money to do so but you basically run all of it for free most of the year. And besides that, with all the current global issues that are going on the reliance on fossil fuels should be phased out rapidly.
plug a solar panel into a large battery backup, plug the major appliances into that.
Utility companies don't need to know shit.
That's what I have. Basically a small-ish parallel electrical system that runs critical loads like a mini split, refrigerator, water heater, etc. And a small UPS for modem/server.
These can output 1800W, 1100Wh, Starts at CAD$700 then you just pay more for more storage for bigger systems.
My thoughts exactly. Also I wouldn't really like to risk my stuff by connecting to their infrastructure anyway. At least over here, I saw how incompetent they are.
Why don't we just change the revenue model for power companies. I understand they need money to maintain the infrastructure and pay employees. If power generation becomes so cheap that it can't sustain the company then don't rely on that for revenue. I'd rather pay a flat rate for the infrastructure and operating costs than a fluctuating generation charge. And public utilities should not be for profit.
Many places already do charge a “line charge” if you have solar power and use little or no utility company power. You pay for being hooked up to the grid even if you barely use it.
This. This is the way. It solves this problem completely, but utilities somehow refuse it. It's almost like their argument is not in good faith ...
When I got solar panels on my previous home there was a $5 a month line charge. That when went up to $8 the next year, then $10, then closer to $20. The power company (Duke Energy in case anyway wants to the shitty company's name) was determined to make it as painful as possible for people to use Solar. They were also apparently responsible for pushing to get it illegal in that area to go "off grid" and to have a cap on the amount of solar power a home could generate. At now point did these line changes stop them from raising the normal power usage rates mind you, this was just an extra "fuck you" from them.
If your business is critical for modern human living, it should be non-profit. It should be guided by the best management plan of the time, debated and approved by the majority of shareholders. It should open its books and stay open.
Really, it should be government.
May I introduce you to the concept of 'natural monopoly'.
Basically most natural monopolies (power, phone lines, roads etc) in most places were historically run by governments (because it's bloody sensible) until the neoliberal movement in the 80s privatized them because 'private enterprise is more efficient' (at extracting tax dollars as it turned out) and to balance a few budgets.
Should definitely be ruled a failed experiment and rolled back.
My power company is a co-op. They have long term contracts with various providers, so my power bill doesn't fluctuate much on short term news.
At the end of every year, we get a dividend check in the mail for any excess profit.
Pretty sure all utilities should work that way.
Capitalism. Anyone who tries not to buy my shit is my enemy.
I just got off the phone with a solar installer and they had 2 products, one which cost nearly 60-100k to install and could be done right away because of a deal with my local gov and electric utility. Also the net metering rate and credits are getting reduced by the same utility which is actually making a return on investment harder.
OR
Another solar product costs 40k but it may take years to get approval which is not guaranteed because so far every attempt for approval from the local gov and electric utility have been in limbo or flat out denied.
🤔
that's so blatant
In Florida I'm calling out FPL the local power company.
You would think in Florida having solar panels is a no brainer, but FPL fought it for years.
FPL successfully lobbied to have insurance companies deny coverage if panels are installed on a roof. You can't get windstorm insurance with panels unless you paythrought the nose.
FPL successfully lobbied to force homeowners with powerwalls and panels to take out a 1 million dollar insurance policy payable to FPL in case there's an accident that damages the grid....an accident that has never happened, ever.
FPL then has the gall to advertise solar energy and all the benefits, you can sign up for solar power provided by FPL for a slight increase in your bill to help the environment.
Mother fucking FPL
