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you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs
I don't think this is a NT vs Autism thing. There are topics that, depending on the environment, are taboo and not to be discussed. Figuring out these rules is confusing (or at least, not automatic) for Autistic peeps, but actually following the rules is something both NT and autistic people must do. Whether or not you call it masking, it's still something that both groups are subjected to.
I don't see how it can't be a NT vs autism thing.
They're only taboo subjects because society (primarily NTs) decided they were taboo.
Autistic people have to follow the rules set by NTs, not the other way around.
They’re only taboo subjects because society (primarily NTs) decided they were taboo.
Autistic people have to follow the rules set by NTs, not the other way around.
I'm 50/50 on this.
People running a social scene (generally NTs) set the cadence, yes.
Thoughts/questions/ponderings:
Some taboos exist for good reason and apply across the board. We don't greet strangers by asking them how their genitals are feeling, for example (although that would be hilarious).
I think I agree with Savvy more.
Do autistic people, as individuals, not have rules in their own head about how people should interact with them?
Autistic people generally have either far fewer than allistics or if they have some kind of social obsession potentially they have a whole world of rules of their own that even allistics will struggle with.
But yeah generally, in my own case: 1) Don't be irrationally or sadistically mean.
That's basically it. You can be irrational/strange around me and at most I'll be surprised due it being unexpected and my "mask software" wont have a response to load and I'll freeze up for a bit. You can even be mean if there is sufficient justification for it. Maybe I fucked up bad.
Now, "being mean" a fairly broad category and I have specific obsessive silos of topics I don't want broken, but that's on the basis of a "info hazard". Mainly: discussions of poop or story spoilers. But if someone ends up breaking those "Rules" I don't hold it against them because they could not have known that I have a severe aversion to both of those things, I just warn them and move on.
In social groups composed entirely of autistic people, would another set of norms emerge that could get someone in the group scolded if they broke them, just like in the rest of society?
Yes but they'd probably be documented, FAQ'd, etc. Autistic people would tell rule violators to RTFM.
When a NT person upsets an autistic person because they broke a norm they weren’t familiar with, wouldn’t they also feel bad and try to remember not to do that in the future?
If the autistic person got upset at the person for breaking a norm the allistic was unfamiliar with they'd be being unfair assuming there was no good reason for them to have known in the first place.
Some taboos exist for good reason and apply across the board. We don’t greet strangers by asking them how their genitals are feeling, for example (although that would be hilarious).
I unironically would be pretty comfortable in a society that did that. At worst I'd probably be confused by why this was the thing people asked about but if I encountered a society that did such and I learned that as a common greeting I'd settle in fine.
When I was young (late 1970s), "How's it hangin'?" was actually a common greeting. Not usually to strangers, granted, but pretty common.
Well intentioned, often other "neurodivergent" people look at your life, your autism, and say: "you should mask harder."
Yeah pretty much, right? But is any other advice possible?
"Here's how to appear less autistic" is really the only usable piece of info when the problem is "I'm autistic and that's never going to change but it sometimes causes problems".
"Learn how to politely say Fuck you deal with it it's definitely going to happen again" is the only other realistic option but that strategy is only effective in limited contexts.
I do generally notice that, though I don't necessarily agree that trying to treat others well is masking versus just choosing polite conversation.
I asked for advice (elsewhere) and the advice was universally, “you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs. Going forwards, know it is best to avoid this topic.”
I don't think of that as masking actually. NTs run into the "said something they shouldn't have" error quite a lot... i think of that as just learning new social nuance. If social interactions are like kayaking in ooen water, this is the equivalent of bumping (gently) into a wall that was already there, but being given instructions to mask more is like them putting down barriers to reduce the amount of water you have available to maneuver in.
But I do think in your example that the best course would be for NTs to just be more aware of and accepting of ND saying things they consider weird. Would be the most efficient course of action and is more of a solution than "Add this to the mental list of things you can't talk about!"
Don’t mask harder 🙅♂️
Mask smarter 👍
I deliberately started masking less, and 6 months later my wife left me.
This should hopefully demonstrate that masking comes with serious costs, including misleading people who will come to think your mask is who you really are and possibly even come to love that fake person.
Unfortunately the world isn’t made for us and doesn’t understand — or want to understand — us. The only thing we have the ability to change is ourselves. It’s tiring and overwhelming and stupid, but using logic to cater to others emotional irrationality is just something we have to do to survive.
Yes, “mask harder” is a bad suggestion, but it’s the only one we have the power to do anything about. 😞
I basically made masking a hyperfixation for a while, until I had a good enough grasp of NT social interaction that I could drop the mask more and more. Then I just came across as cool, confident, and interesting when I was doing my own thing. It's kind of a "Learn the rules so you can break them" situation. NT conventions aren't really all that complicated if you devote a bit of time to study. If you can steer your fixations at all, it's worth the investment so you can get on with your life with fewer interruptions.
Lol sob 😭
"You need to learn to say no, because you are working well beyond your capacity and you need to take care of yourself"
Literally every time I say no it's seen as the beginning of a negotiation. I'm not being vague either. "Here is some data. I don't have time to review it with you today. Have a look and we'll discuss next week." Somehow that is interpreted as "Waltz into my office right now and ask about the data"
Or "I am not looking after that, go speak to (other engineer)" becomes 'Potato is handling it"
And like, these people are peers at best. They aren't trying to politely tell me I'm not doing my job or something.
The absolute worst is "I'm going to need to sit with the info you gave me before I can respond" becomes them just repeating themselves or trying to tell me what my response might be. Or when I say "I actually can't remember, but I can look it up" becomes them guessing. Not only have they completely ignored what I said to them, I'm now 100% checked out and every last drop of executive function is gone.
I think a lot of advice tends to be an explanation of a social rule, with the implication that following the rule (or "masking better") is preferred. Sometimes the insistence that rules must be followed is more explicit, which I find aggravating because I don't think social rules have to be followed, and there are many times where they should be broken. I think they're similar to literary or grammatical rules in that it's better to be aware of them and have a nuanced understanding of how people use them, so I can follow or break them more intentionally in conversation as my preferences dictate. For my money I'd rather people take the time to explain the rules they adhere to no matter how silly or damaging they are. At least then I can engage with the rule more tactically rather than being caught unaware when I accidentally break it.
Yep, that's why I only choose to hang out with other neurodivergent people or people who are willing to treat ND people's needs as at least as important as their more toxic social norms.
Public interactions you have to conform to survive, but personal connections are your choice.
their more toxic social norms
I wouldn't say politeness and tact are toxic.
The problem is that the rules for being "polite" and "tactful" are seemingly arbitrary and impossible to understand.
I know there are facial expressions you are supposed to make in certain situations to make your words work as polite, but I cannot consistently figure out how to do it.
I'm sure this is an inappropriate question, but out of curiosity, are you a man or a woman?
I'm just always curious with this because women are typically diagnosed later or not at all because women figure out masking earlier and better.
I wonder if it's purely self preservation on the part of women or if women are more explicit in social rules with one another?
As an autistic woman, it's been self preservation for me. Other non autistic women have not been explicit about the rules. Quite the opposite lol.
I am a man.
I think I might be agender though. I find gender roles as confusing and arbitrary as all the other social rules.
because our behaviors and personalities are seen as a burden. having to be mindful about somebody's limitations requires some amount of work and people don't want to be bothered.
Which is a shame, because it means more of the effort falls onto us. We have to be extra careful of what upsets NTs, but NTs aren't instructed (nor expected) to be careful of what upsets us. To be fair, what that is can differ strongly from person to person.
It just sucks when you run into a spot where either side needs to give - like when your energy is low and somebody complains about your vocal tone. On your side, you're already extending as much energy as possible and falling short. On the NT's side, they don't necessarily know that the reason for the change in tone is because of something you can't control, and it has nothing to do with your feelings toward others. I ran into this issue recently and it basically meant I had to entrust someone else to explain to the other person what the issue was, because I didn't have the spoons to explain why tone is a lifelong issue and why mentioning it triggers me. Thankfully, my workplace is understanding, but I've been in countless more situations where I'd be expected to somehow give more of myself just to appease the NTs who don't consider what their words mean to me (even though I've been made acutely aware through life of what my words can mean to others.) These situations usually fall 100% onto us to resolve, even when we aren't capable of it in any given moment. Which sucks so hard.
I wish there was more public understanding of our struggles. I wish masking so well didn't result in harsher social punishments when our masks inevitably slip. It would be a fairer world if NTs were taught and expected to respect our sides, instead of just us being expected to navigate the minefield of NT socialization. Alas, we're not there yet. But, the more we talk about our sides, the more NTs may come to understand us. Hopefully.
i share in your experiences and frustrations. i've had similar moments throughout my life when i felt the responsibility was entirely on me to make sure the social interaction went smoothly. i have tried to explain to people how i find certain social expectations exhausting and draining but that isn't really understood and often forgotten by the next time it happens.
If I masked any harder, I would become Jim Carrey's character in The Mask.
Stanley Ipkiss
As a non autistic person, we too are thought to fit in since childhood and do learn to wear social masks. It's not something exclusive to autistic people, but I guess you guys have a harder time learning to do it.
Moderate your behavior in public and respect other people is a conscious effort until it becomes "natural".
Just remember respect is a two way street, and everybody usually is trying to play their role.
Yes and no. The advice you received in particular is just as valid for neurotypical people. Knowing what is okay to talk about in different contexts is a learned behavior, not something that comes naturally to everyone.
However it is also true that a lot of advice is just 'mask harder' because... It's really the only thing you can do. You can't control other people and institutional change is slow, so the only option is to affect what you can affect and that will be yourself.
The difference is on WHY you're doing things. Masking is toxic if you're doing it to please other people or because it feels unsafe otherwise.
But adopting different ways of communicating depending on the context is not masking, it's how language works. Nobody speaks to their boyfriend the same way they speak to their Christian grandmother or the same way they talk in Xbox Live .
It's not "mask harder" - it is "don't be autistic".
Sometimes the advice isn't centered around interactions with other people.
Like - wearing sunglasses can help with feelings of overstimulation during the daytime.
running a fan at night for constant white noise can help you sleep
Liquid electrical tape is a great way to cover up those little LED lights on everything
10-20 seconds of cold shower can help your body with thermoregulation
My problem is that so much of discussion about autism is centered around social interaction, that people begin to think autism is just a problem of fitting in, and if only other people could be more receptive everything would be better... well it wouldn't make the sun any less bright!
We all wear a mask.
I'm not autistic (that I know of), but I do have ADHD so I can be a bit extra sometimes. I've realized that it's a different mask for every person or group of friends.
Occasionally I run into people with whom the mask is pretty much transparent. Those are my favorite people. I'm a lot more fun around them. So as long as I get to choose, these are the people I hang out with.
My current job (well, former job - I'm a contractor now) is actually great, because like half the team is people like that. I can make stupid ass jokes or rant about things, and it's all good.
I'm pretty sure I've annoyed allistics (NT or ND) friends and acquaintances by bringing up philosophy, sex, politics, religion, etc much more readily than normally "appropriate".
I'll continue to otherwise be friendly with them but on this they can get fucked. The only time I'm enduring "safe" small talk is when I'm at work.
The key here is to accept that not everyone needs to be your friend... unless you live in the middle of nowhere or in rural bumfuck (or as mentioned before you are at work). Then because the number of friends you'll potentially have will always be countable on 1-2 hands and you wont be able to afford losing one.
The actual good advice is: move to highly populated areas, accept that you'll alienate a large portion of people, and settle on the percentage of cool ones.
Unfortunately, moving to a populated place is expensive. So first get a job, and save up for the move.
If I could will myself into being less autistic....I wouldnt even be here. So what gives? Is it clueless NT allies?
It's a skill that we find harder to master than others. That's all.
Some are naturally gifted at math. Some can learn a new language effortlessly. Others have to practice and pay attention carefully or they make an error.
It took me 30 years. My personality is now permanently different. It's no longer a mask just like learning a language and culture eventually becomes normal.
If the advice was saying NT avoid the topic, that would just mean they are masking it as well would it not?
Well, NT people mask too. I thought the goal of these communities was "ND dont need to mask 24/7! Accept who you are!" and then I hear "But limit your personality in public, it makes others uncomfortable."
People (including other autistic people) treat my autism as a liability and a nuisance. Thanks! I knew that!
I think there are situations where consciously choosing to follow a social convention against one's "natural" inclination (which I think is a type of masking) is a good idea. For example, if someone has recently experienced a death in their family, I might think twice about making death-related jokes, or even bringing up the subject of death at all. I don't think these rules are inviolable; with the right context I think humor can help with grief. But I think it requires a level of intimacy with the person grieving and their relationship with the deceased, and thoughtlessly saying any thing that comes to mind can cause fresh hurts for someone already hurting a lot. That's a rule that I consciously try to follow and think very carefully before I break it.
There are other rules that I will willingly and gleefully break because I think they're harmful, e.g. "It's [unpatriotic / blasphemous / rude] to criticize [the government / church leaders / authorities]". That rule is bad and exists to reinforce the power of people who already have power, so I deliberately try to break it, and I try to catch myself when I find myself unintentionally following it.
I think a lot of "just mask harder" advice comes down to people's (well-founded or otherwise) belief that a certain rule should be followed, sometimes without question (I often find this axiomatic take explained with some variant of "that's just the rule"). I like learning about the rule even if I take the implicit recommendation of following the rule with a grain of salt, but I do find the implication that rules have to be followed because they're rules tiring.
Don't call your mother fat, don't push the person standing at the crosswalk in front of a bus, don't cut someone's hair when sitting behind them because it bothers you... Socially unaccepted actions, why, because they are. In another universe they all may be acceptable. Our cultures calls them rude, murder, and possibly assault or maybe just impolite. Why. Because stuff and things. Mostly, it'll hurt someone's feelings.
Really I think it is, our freedom ends where anothers begins. Thus, we are free to do what we wish, but if your happiness impeeds on anothers happiness, then there is an issue.
Edit*. When the law doesn't match that, then I feeo government has failed
I don't think the reasoning behind unspoken customs is unknowable or arbitrary. I think part of being a good person is analyzing the rules that are handed down by our elders and deciding which are good to follow and which are good to leave behind. Circumstances change, new information comes to light that our parents weren't privy to. Or, maybe they just made convenient or selfish choices when deciding which rules were important. Sometimes those convenient or selfish choices get codified into law, and when they do, it's up to us to fix them. I dunno if that's government failing so much as it's just how government works.
What else is there to do when people don't accommodate?