this post was submitted on 13 Feb 2026
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History Memes

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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I think a lot of people fail to reconcile this in their minds because of how massive and destructive European colonization and imperialism of the early modern era was - and how relevant it still is. Abuses tend to spring from power imbalances, and the power imbalance between the increasingly-industrial European colonial powers and those they brutalized was massive. It was a horrific crime and and evil that reverberates in both the colonizer and the colonized to this day.

But like... the Kingdom of Largeland, 1300 AD, conquering the Kingdom of Smallland, 1300 AD? That kind of imperialism can go either way. There's no massive technological imbalance that can't be remedied by adaptation or allegiance.

Fundamentally, the question is "Are the PEOPLE in the polity better off or worse off, morally, than they were under previous elites? Are they more free? More equal? More democratic? More socially mobile? Etc" And in the case of early modern imperialism, which is what most people are familiar with, in almost all cases the answer is "No", and often with a side serving of literal genocide.

It would be extremely difficult to argue that the Scramble For Africa, for example, was justified because a small proportion of people in a small proportion of the polities brutalized were better off. A handful of slaves in a handful of regional systems that could be argued to be worse than the repugnant system of colonial 'corvee' and extraction installed by the European powers does not justify the subjugation of the other 98% of people to a status of near-slavery. And nothing could justify the Belgian Congo.

But when Cyrus of Persia conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire and was welcomed as a liberator, was it because he had mind altering powers? No. You could argue that it was a case of "Victors write the history" and that we're just not getting the full story, but in that case, it would have to be "And the losers choose to believe it" in an era when oral transmission was more common than the written word. Even hundreds of years later Cyrus was celebrated by the conquered as a positive figure. Being ruled by a foreign elite is not always worse than being ruled by a local elite - and oftentimes, in an era before strong senses of nationalism, anyone who's more than a day's walk away is a foreign elite anyway. When given the choice between two foreign rulers, the tendency is to prefer the better of the two.

In the past, it's shitty polities against largely equally shitty polities, and the question then becomes "Which rule is less shitty for the people whose status is potentially changing?" Since the imperial core of pre-modern polities do not enjoy massive military advantages, man-for-man, over their periphery, the tendency is for stable and successful polities to make some form of reasonable accommodation with the conquered, which can mean things get somewhat worse, somewhat better, or stay effectively the same after imperialist conquest.

... of course, sometimes the result is the same as early modern imperialism - degradation and genocide. But it's less certain that that is always the outcome of one polity conquering another without the context of the advantages of Europe over distant locales in the early modern period.

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Not sure what point you're making exactly? The Umayyads colonised/conquered Iberia and drove the christian Visigoths out, and after some centuries the christian kingdoms reconquered/colonised the land and drove the muslims of Al-Andalus out.

Not sure I'd really call either colonialism rather than conquest tbh.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 1 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

You say drove them out but that's not true. The vast majority of residents stayed. It's not like all the Christians left, most of them stayed and paid the tax or converted. The so-called reconquest was of people that had been living there for hundreds of years and whose ancestors have been living there even longer.

Also important to remember that the visogoths were a very small ruling class. A very recent one too.

[–] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It was definitely more conquest than colonization.

The more interesting thing is that the Ummayads conquered most of Iberia in like 7-8 years. The Reconquista took 7 centuries and wasn't completed until 1492.

Incidentally some of the hardened veterans of the late Reconquista were the ones who would go on to annihilate the Aztec empire (didn't help that the Aztecs had a lot of surrounding nations that they had subjugated that hated them) and commit some of the worst atrocities in this history of European colonialism including treating the natives of the new world as slaves in their race for resource extraction.

The resources extracted in the new world would help build a lot of the nice architecture we see in modern day Spain, but it also cause inflation that destroyed Spain's productive economy.

Here's a video that explains that last part (to be taken with a huge grain of salt - lot of absolutes stated here, but the overall thing did happen):

https://youtu.be/Mqde3Oeo7Rg

[–] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 day ago

You guys are being jerks, we're becoming mercs, fuck you, and see you on the banks of the Pisuerga River.

[–] CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 17 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"...to become colonial powers themselves."

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

The history of humanity is basically colonialism up until extremely recently. The only variables are distance and time.

The biggest difference today is, now that we've finally realized it was not a good thing, some people acknowledge that and some don't.

[–] CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No, sorry. You cannot lump all types of colonialism into one thing. Ancient greek or phoenician colonization were different to roman coloniae were different to the imperialistically twisted colonialism focused on extortion of the colonialized people and areas that started to be an idea in the (very) late middle ages, took off in the early modern era and reached its peak in the 18th and 19th century.

[–] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So Uhm... Which ones of those were the good kind of colonialism?

[–] CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Why does one have to be "good" for these not to be the same? Those things are different, with different motivations, methods, outcomes, etc.
And all in all, forms of colonialism during antiquity hadn't nearly the negative impact on the colonialized areas and people as modern, imperialistic colonialism.
Or do you really think that phoenician (antiquity) or norse (early medieval) trading outposts that integrated into the surrounding cultures and sometimes organically (!) evolve into a new culture (for example, Carthage, Kievan Rus) or viking/norse settlements in what became a french vassal in Normandy is the same as european powers carving up Africa among each other, comitting genocide in the process and drawing new borders disregarding tribal territories?

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 points 12 hours ago

Meanwhile, in Assyria:

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 1 points 13 hours ago

Nomenclature is a funny thing.

[–] Einskjaldi@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Is it colonialism when you're the first one there?

Thats an alt-right dogwhistle.