this post was submitted on 09 Feb 2026
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Europe

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[–] bstix@feddit.dk 17 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

It would be nice if the banks stopped to trying to kill the local payment providers for a start.

In Denmark we've had Dankort since 1983, which is free for the consumers to have and use, and it's very cheap volume based pricing for merchants.

However in the past 10 years or so, the banks have been pushing businesses and customers to use VISA/Mastercard. These are not free. The consumers pay an annual fee, and the merchants pay very high transaction fees. Yet the payment providers and banks sell the lie that they are somehow cheaper, even if they're not. A lot of small businesses trust their banks or the payment providers to give them a good deal.

By now, it's basically necessary for consumers to have some kind of foreign card, because so many businesses have stopped accepting Dankort. Most banks don't even offer a "clean" Dankort anymore. They only have dual cards, where the Dankort and VISA are on the same card, which removes the choice from the consumer, since the businesses will charge the VISA. Many businesses don't even understand what cards they accept. I always ask if they accept Dankort if the sign isn't visible, and they think they do, but they don't.

The story is almost the same for the instant payment systems. The banks are the ones who fucked it up, while fighting for and clinging to control of the domestic market, by confusing the customers and businesses and pushing their own limited product.

It's long overdue for the EU to decide on a union wide solution. They're already on it, but it's way too slow or hindered by the political desire for this to be a private market. It really shouldn't be.

[–] NorskSud@lemmy.pt 5 points 4 days ago

It's the same story all over Europe. Portugal still has Multibanco, but as far as I know no one issues a exclusively Multibanco card anymore. My first bank cards were all just Multibanco.

MBway (out digital payments) works great, but I guess in 90% of cases it's associated to a Visa card..

No strategic vision and always that difficulty to cross borders and make alliances with neighbors.

I'm really hopefully that Wero and the Europa alliance will change that.

[–] Ontimp@feddit.org 84 points 5 days ago (6 children)

I have high hopes for the Digital Euro.

To have a digital payment medium that is issued by the central bank and can be exchanged without fees as a 1:1 digital equipment of cash would be amazing and go beyond just replacing American credit card providers.

[–] carrotfox@piefed.social 18 points 5 days ago (4 children)

If they do it like the Brazilian Pix, there's a good chance it'll be a success.

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[–] MrSmith@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

What are the chances it will rely on Google's Play integrity service?

I'm betting that anyone wirh unlocked bootloader or root access won't be able to run this.

[–] Ontimp@feddit.org 7 points 4 days ago

The EUDI Wallets have/had that as a requirement in their spec but it has been heavily criticized, no idea if it will persist though

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[–] ErevanDB@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 days ago

As an American, please do. If you start using other platforms, that will loosen Visa and MasterCard's hold everywhere, and I unfortunately don't see America doing shit about it ourselves, so if you start, we might also be able to.

[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 50 points 5 days ago (12 children)

How the fuck does Europe not have it's own payment system yet?

For one, visa and all the other US payment systems, suuuuuck. I never understood why nobody came up with something better, this just seems lazyness.

Buy hey, better late than never

[–] Kushan@lemmy.world 45 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

The actual answer: they did.

The chip payment standard used on modern cards and terminals falls under a specification called "EMV", which was name after the three companies that made the standard - Europay, MasterCard and Visa.

Europay merged with MasterCard in 2002.

Source: used to write software to validate and test EMV.

Also the US payment systems and the European payment systems are identical (same standard) but implemented badly in the US, that's why it's much faster in Europe. I have several war stories about all this.

[–] msage@programming.dev 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I want to hear those war stories.

[–] Kushan@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I'll give you a fun one.

A point of clarification before I begin though - when I talk about chip cards or smart cards, I mean cards equipped with an EMV chip in them. The USA was one of the last countries to adopt this technology, only doing so roughly in the last 10 or so years. The technology has existed since the 90's (when Europay still existed) and gets regular updates to add new encryption schemes and security gubbins, so while it's 90's technology, it has been updated since (Today's cards use AES and ECC).

Prior to that adoption, the USA basically refused to use them because of the cost (Cost of cards, cost of new terminals, cost of upgrading legacy infrastructure), however they wanted all the modern conveniences like contactless payments - so those first contactless cards were equipped with simple RFID chips. You know the kind, the ones that just spew out static data. Those are the ones the Mythbusters guys investigated and were forced to not air their findings because they're so dogshit insecure (and where the idea of someone walking down the street with a big RFID reader hoovering up credit cards comes from).

With an EMV chip card, you can't do that. Those chips are like mini computers, they don't just spew out static data like your card number, they do challenges and responses, they do encryption, MAC's, the works. They really are quite secure. A transaction works in such a way that the card doesn't trust the terminal and the terminal doesn't trust the card, they validate each other and at any time either of them can say "Nah fuck this, I want to talk to the Bank" - this is called "going online" and if that doesn't work, the transaction is aborted.

The point of all of this preamble is to say that it's actually really difficult to perform fraud on a proper chip card (And again I'm talking about EMV chips, not RFID chips). Not impossible, but very difficult to the point where it's usually not worth it.

So, to try and push adoption of the EMV standard in the USA, the big issuers (Your Mastercards and your Visas) tried to push what they termed the "Liability shift". To put it simply, they'd say something like "If you don't support EMV by November 15th, any fraud in your shop/bank/whatever will come out of your pockets, not ours". Meanwhile, they charged a fee (like 2%) on every transaction to cover fraud. So as a shopkeeper, you'd lose an extra 2% (or whatever it was) on every sale, but if someone came in and bought 10 big-assed TV's using a stolen or cloned card, you didn't lose that money.

The problem is, no shops or businesses were going to upgrade all their equipment any time soon and certainly not before their banks could support it. Likewise the banks didn't want to spend all that money and then tell their clients to buy all new equipment - they were afraid of losing customers because why would a customer spend thousands on a new terminal to stick with the same bank, they may as well shop around.

This weird stalemate meant that adoption was basically nill, so the issuers had to keep pushing back the liability shift over and over. Each time they got a little bit firmer, a sort of "Okay it's now October next year before you need to adopt EMV but this time we mean it for realsies!". This went on for YEARS and years until one day, Mastercard decided "you know what, fuck it, we're not going to bother at all". It turns out, those fees for protecting against fraud? They were lucrative. They made shitloads of money from it, way more than what the actual fraud was costing them.

We got told in advance that an announcement was going to go out - pushing back the liability shift "Indefinitely", which was a real bummer for us because we were about to make shitloads of money selling testing tools and equipment to every fucker who suddenly needed to adopt EMV. Then, literally like 4 days before that announcement was due, a miracle happened - Target got hacked.

Yes, that target hack from 2013 where like 40 million credit cards were leaked onto the internet. The hack that made national news for weeks, the one that rustled the jimmies of everyone who had ever set foot inside a target. There was the biggest credit card breach on record, costing hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud and untold bad blood for tens of millions of customers and Mastercard was about to make an announcement to the effect of "Hey we're going to cancel the one thing that would have prevented all this impending fraud from ever being able to happen".

Yeah, they didn't make that announcement. Instead, they put their foot down and suddenly the USA woke the fuck up and decided to finally adopt chip card technology.

(And of course they did a shit job of it, but that's another story for another day).

[–] msage@programming.dev 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I was not aware there were RFID CCs. That's hilarious.

It's like cheques. I've been in the US for half a year, I did experience getting a cheque and cashing it in an ATM.

The most ridiculous thing for someone who lives in Europe and knows SEPA.

How in the fuck did US ever get to become the world police. I would guess WW2.

[–] Kushan@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You'll notice that they don't like to use PIN with credit cards, either.

[–] msage@programming.dev 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I forgot to thank you for your war story. It's a hell of a good one, too, so thanks.

If you ever want to share more, I'm here for it.

[–] Kushan@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

You're very welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the story :)

[–] cnovel@jlai.lu 13 points 4 days ago (1 children)

France still has one. It's called CB (Carte Bleue) and is working alongside Visa and Mastercard. Notoriously, some years ago Visa was down for a day and it impacted lots of countries except France because everyone fell back to the CB Network.

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[–] phx@lemmy.world 18 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Canada seriously needs this too. While we do have Interac for debit I much prefer the safety of a credit card after several relatives have had their cards skimmed etc

Hell, if they started with a "Canada only" card I'd be 100% ok with that as my primary

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[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 19 points 4 days ago (1 children)

There should be some sort of free and open source payment system with no central party in charge at all.

[–] vane@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago (9 children)
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[–] comrade_twisty@feddit.org 40 points 5 days ago (25 children)

We’ve had Twint for over a decade in Switzerland and it’s adopted everywhere here, I have no idea why every country is cooking their own new system right now.

Pick one that works already and roll it out on the whole continent, it’s not that hard.

[–] birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 39 points 5 days ago (2 children)

That's Wero. It's basically iDEAL in a new jacket.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 24 points 5 days ago

Apparently owned by PEPSI 🀭

[–] broom@piefed.social 14 points 5 days ago (1 children)

And iDEAL is really good. Everyone in the Netherlands uses it.

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[–] NorskSud@lemmy.pt 12 points 5 days ago

Other countries also have their own systems since long.. MBway in Portugal is also more than a decade old.

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[–] NorthoftheBorder@lemmy.ca 17 points 4 days ago (1 children)

A Canadian alternative is desperately needed too.

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[–] sahin@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Lets create a distributed fediverse alternative lol

[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 19 points 4 days ago

It would get stuck in endless debate over whether John Deere should be allowed to sell things because someone from Israel bought a tractor once.

[–] E_coli42@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago

If you change to different centralized payment systems, they will eventually devolve into oligopolies/monopoly as well. In order to make a final solution that works forever, you need a free/open protocol like GNU_Taler

[–] Hirom@beehaw.org 14 points 4 days ago

More banks and businesses should support Taler.

If Visa/Mastercard get replaced by another company's centralized payment system, what prevent a large foreign corp from buying it, like they regularily do? Then we're back to square one.

[–] utjebe@reddthat.com 3 points 3 days ago

A lot of countries have instant payments already. It is surprising there isn't more push towards using this at least.

[–] SabinStargem@lemmy.today 13 points 5 days ago

Please, make it available to Americans. I want to buy my hentai, and uphold the social contract with my fellow perverts.

[–] JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

In the meantime it would also help if existing laws would finally be enforced. It is clear that transferring european payment data into the USA cannot be legal under GDPR. We know that all of those "privacy shield" regulations are dead under Trump. There are good reasons to suspect that Visa and Mastercard are abusing their duopoly as payment processor - and there are laws against monopoly abuses.

[–] NorskSud@lemmy.pt 1 points 3 days ago

That's so true!

[–] HowRu68@lemmy.world 18 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Isn't that what WERU is all about; "The service competes with PayPal, credit cards and similar services. "?

[–] Ghoelian@piefed.social 13 points 5 days ago (6 children)

It's WERO and afaik they don't issue cards. If you want to make in-store payments you're stuck with visa of mastercard.

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[–] Bigfishbest@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Norway has BankAxept I believe. Fully homegrown, works just like visa.

[–] Miaou@jlai.lu 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Every country in Europe has its own payment system, that's kind of the whole point

[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 3 points 4 days ago

Most do not actually

Fully dependent on Mastercard and Visa here in the Baltics for an example.

[–] Scrollone@feddit.it 6 points 4 days ago

Italy has Bancomat, but still. We need a system that's interoperable in the whole Europe.

[–] First_Thunder@lemmy.zip 13 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Portugal already has their own payment processor, even started being exported to Romania

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 33 points 5 days ago (5 children)

We need a cross-EU one. WERO and Gnu Taler seem like the best candidates. Honestly, Gnu Taler will probably be ignored because banks can't take advantage by invading privacy.

[–] 0xtero@beehaw.org 13 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I’d actually rather see many federated solutions with cross-EU interoperability instead of making yet another payment monopoly

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[–] Strawberry@sh.itjust.works 12 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Gnu Taler seems really interesting, if the trial in Switzerland goes well it might have a chance. I'm still hopeful we can have nice things.

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