Ask Lemmy

My rebuttal: eat shit you fucking bigot

You cannot teach adults why they should care.

The people who are actually valuable would not say such a thing.

Give her a tour of the most godawful nursing home to show her future when she no longer has "value."

Seriously, I feel like the owners of those places would feed their clients to the woodchippers if they could get away with it.

No rebuttal necessary. Anyone that shitty isn’t worth having a conversation with at all.

It sounds like she doesn’t understand how the brain works differently and in a person with depression.

Unfortunately, she probably isn’t willing to learn. I know a lot of people with similar opinions feel like they know everything.

I’m sorry you have to go through that.

Ask what "people that don't have value" are, definition likely includes her or people close to her at certain situations.

I'll speak to the humans have value part, but just briefly saying someone diagnosed with depression is just being lazy is bigoted against people with serious mental health diagnosis and is the same & just as gross as saying someone diagnosed with a physical condition like cancer is lazy.

You may be interested in learning about Alan Gewirth if you haven't had the chance yet.

https://iep.utm.edu/gewirth/

He argued for universal human rights based on our inherent agency. The argument is laid out better elsewhere, but a short version is something like this:

1. We humans have agency, that is desires & goals to accomplish. For a child it can be as basic as I'm hungry -> eat food, but this is something that gives us normative structure (you should do a thing). For example if I have the goal of graduating from school I should attend classes, I should do homework, etc.

2. Every goal you wish to accomplish can have different requirements, but two that are always present are the freedom to pursue your goals and the wellbeing to accomplish tasks necessary to achieve your goals. So you would need the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and achieve your goals.

3. Because your agency gives you the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and accomplish your goals, then everyone's agency grants them the same rights.

If you accept the 3 items above then violate other people's freedom and wellbeing then you would be objectively wrong and inconsistent in your beliefs, because you believe you have rights by agency but deny those same rights to others by the same reason (agency) they hold.

Do you think she is able to change her mind? If not, maybe it's not worth trying to refute whatever she can say or think.

I was still a child when I realized my mom and I would never agree on much. At first, I tried hard to force her to understand my point of view on whatever was at stake, not realizing the contradiction between 'understanding' and 'forcing'. I was barely a teen when I realized that contradiction and that it was useless to insist. It mattered even less that back then I knew for a fact I would not be spending my life with her, also I know I could spend time people with whom I felt... more welcomed/understood. Back in the 70s and early 80s, it was simpler for young kid to spend time outside of the house, even with perfect strangers... No idea how hard it has become for kids nowadays but I'm afraid this won't help them find some peace and hope (as a child, my life was more painful within my family than with any of those strangers I met outside and spent as much time as I could with).

I don‘t believe in laziness. There is no scientific proof for laziness but plenty evidence that points in the opposite direction. It‘s as ridiculous of a concept as an almighty god. Possibly even more outlandish.

Boredom is torture. Nobody is acting lazy out of choice. We simply spend our energy at unproductive things sometimes. But honestly? Isn’t that what all this circus is about in the end? That we do what we love or that we do things for others because we love them?

Show me one „lazy“ person and I‘ll tell you why they‘re not actually lazy but occupy themselves with things you or I don‘t deem important. It‘s not laziness. It never is.

Don’t feed the trolls. I know she’s your mom, but not everyone deserves a response. If she keeps on you, just wave her away with “I heard you”.

Nothing you say will influence that level of callous, cruel, self-centered, unempathetic evil. I would say nothing and never talk to her again. Ultimately, a person can only change themselves, and she has chosen to be monstrous. She is more likely to influence you than you are to influence her, because you can see beyond yourself and she does not.

There isn't a ton to say, as she likely does not want or is willing to be convinced otherwise. If you know that her view is untrue (which, it is. There are, quite literally, millions upon millions of people who live fulfilling, good lives with depression. There are also people who provide "value" to the community through employment or otherwise who do not necessarily deserve to live.), then you do not have to value it. It's the same way you wouldn't value a Flat Earther's screeching about you being wrong about sphere Earth; they are beyond reason, and are not worth the energy needed to combat their views. It's tough, because it is your mother, but motherhood does not mean you are wise or well-lived. The barrier for entry to parenthood is extremely low.

Same thing i told my mother when she told me that same view... "Fuck you, kill yourself"

Sounds a lot like "how you feel doesn't matter, your right to exist depends on being useful to me."

Which calls for acquiring leverage and using it to set boundaries, more than it calls for a rational rebuttal. Just gotta systematically remove the power such people have over you, and then they won't be able to talk to you that way anymore.

I think I've said this before to you a few weeks ago, and I totally understand that it's easier said than done to cut family off, but your family are negative influences in your life and on your psyche, and you should be ignoring their bullshit and get away from them.

Sorry your family still sucks, all I can offer are platitudes I'm afraid.

To answer your question though, I think a good, solid "Shit up, shit-bagel, you wouldn't have shit if it weren't for me and no amount of denial on your part can change facts." and walk away/block/slam the door.

From your posts it sounds like you really just need to get away from your family, sorry.

"Fuck you mom!"

Then walk out and never speak to her again.

If she thinks that depression is just an excuse for laziness, then what's her excuse for her laziness?

It is simple, if not trivial, to go look up what depression means, for example, on Wikipedia. She hasn't done this, and we know that because her understanding of depression doesn't match the actual definition, so her opinion on depression stems from her laziness.

She implies that other people's laziness is a bad thing, so why does she think it's okay for her to express such laziness and lazy opinions?

No.

Pinpoint her ideology or religion and you will find venerated figures that didn't "provide value." For instance if we're talking about productive labour in the capitalist sense, Jesus didn't have a job (for most of the bible's narrative). Confucius? Similar story, I think. Any philosopher or religious figure...

Value really becomes subjective. If you're a writer like Ayn Rand or George Orwell, of course you have been very successful, but many people don't find value in your work, because they disagree with you.

Our ability to provide value is also fairly contingent on those around us, the head-start they've given to us, and the problems or trauma we have to overcome.

From my experience, people who say this either highly value themselves or are/were depressed and hate(d) themselves for it.

Don't waste too much time trying to change their mind and just keep it in mind the next time they say something.

I believe everyone has value. You might have born in the wrong time period to FULLY utilize that value, but that doesn’t mean you have NO value.

With that said. Don’t mind the voices that tear you down. Surround yourself with people that CARE.

Do you mean deserve instead of serve?

What does value mean and how do we get value? It seems more like she's saying that she doesn't value some people, and that we should have the same values as her.

But she doesn't get to determine value, the whole community collectively assigns value. We've all hade times in our life where we were less and more productive to give up on someone during a low point isn't just laughably evil but also a bad investment.

It costs basically nothing to be nice to someone and that could turn around their depression (there's tons of anecdotal examples of this).

Are there any people or things that are valuable to your mother solely because they bring joy? Are friendships purely transactional, are you supposed to win friendships and extract more joy than the other party? Dunno just feels like she hasn't thought very deeply about this.

She's using a logical fallacy, in this case, vested interest.

Here's how it works, logically speaking, from Dr. Bo Bennet:

Person 1 is claiming Y.

Person 1 has a vested interest in Y being true.

Therefore, Y is false.

My rebuttal is "your mom is a b***h". Cut contact as soon as you can; you don't need someone like that in your life. She doesn't value other human beings, and she doesn't have empathy for the suffering of others. She sounds like a nasty person to be around and all she will do is bring you down - either through her constant negativity or though her hatred of others.

You don't need to rebut her words - she is an adult and has made her choices - you just need to accept she is not a good person and move on as soon as you can.

The rebuttal is:

Go no contact, if she ever asks why you don't talk to her anymore, tell her she's a complete monster.

Fuck off mum

By the way your mom describes depression, it’s obvious she doesn’t understand what it actually is. She likely thinks depressed people simply sleep all day and feel sad. I would start by asking her to define the terms she’s using, have her define depression and value, then ask what she believes laziness means. The way she frames this suggests she’s repeating something she heard rather than expressing a considered worldview. It probably isn’t her own position; she’s just agreeing with it. Ask her what she actually believes, assuming she has a coherent position at all. Finally, close the discussion by asking whether she has actually read the Bible from front to back. That question usually ends the conversation.

Have you ever tried to coordinate 5 people to do something well? Do you know how hard that is? And you think thousands of well educated professionals, all over the world, are somehow working together to confabulate lies like "depression" just to justify laziness?

That would be my argument.

Plenty of people have told you already that she sounds toxic, that you should cut ties, etc. I don't disagree, but if you do want a rebuttal:

What value does she provide to society now? And what value would she provide if, say, she was injured in such a way that she couldn't work anymore? What about when she retires? Does she think she should be culled in either of those cases?

Society works better when people know their loved ones are safe, regardless of their ability to contribute. Because when society doesn't take care of the less able, their loved ones have to; often at the expense of society.

Narcissists and people who struggle with empathy often miss that this is in their own self interest, because they often have trouble seeing that most people won't participate much in a society that doesn't help their loved ones.