Ask Lemmy

Ask what "people that don't have value" are, definition likely includes her or people close to her at certain situations.

The people who are actually valuable would not say such a thing.

My rebuttal: eat shit you fucking bigot

You cannot teach adults why they should care.

Sounds like your mom wanted a little slave to obey her and instead got a human child with an individual character that wants to be loved and live free. Well, people do that a lot. Try to get away from there. Focus on what you're good at, train your skills try to stand on your own feet and make a life and a living of your own. Then you can start living independently and get away from people with such cold hearted inhumane points of view.

(Only productive people's live are valuable, seriously? That is just social-darwinist garbage... In my country there used to be a asshole with a funny beard who propagated this point of view a lot and he ended up shooting himself in a berlin bunker in '45)

Every child deserves unconditional love from their parents. It is their decision to set a child in this world not the child's. The child owes nothing to their parents. They're human beings not little slave servant puppets. Be aware that you're no longer the helpless child. You're an adult now. Help yourself and be the kind of parent to yourself your mother never was able to be. And you'll find people who care and love you for who you are and not only for your productivity.

She's a fascist and a nazi because she puts ideologies above human life.

Apart from that, if "useless" people truly didn't have a purpose, then why did nature make them in the first place?

Apart from that, "value" is highly subjective. You can just define your own value and then live by that. Then you have "value".

Apart from that, my experience with these people is that they're ideologically inconsistent. They will follow the rules and think that the rules are a good thing universally, until these very same rules turn around to hurt them. Because they inevitably do. Suddenly, the rules are bullshit and should be abolished. It has happened to my mother. She was a die-hard nazi, saying things such as "useless eaters should be abolished" and "who doesn't work, doesn't deserve to eat" and stuff like that ... She also said that "self-sacrifice for the employer is a good thing, because in the end you will be rewarded" or sth ... she was laid off last year. It was beautiful to see how she slowly realized that hard work does not always pay off and that some employers are just assholes, and that it's not always people's own fault that they're unemployed ... she had a change of heart after that and is less adamant about her earlier ideology now. Sometimes, things still slip through, but she's less aggressive overall.

I think "nuh uh" is a fair rebuttal, to be honest

Same thing i told my mother when she told me that same view... "Fuck you, kill yourself"

I'll speak to the humans have value part, but just briefly saying someone diagnosed with depression is just being lazy is bigoted against people with serious mental health diagnosis and is the same & just as gross as saying someone diagnosed with a physical condition like cancer is lazy.

You may be interested in learning about Alan Gewirth if you haven't had the chance yet.

https://iep.utm.edu/gewirth/

He argued for universal human rights based on our inherent agency. The argument is laid out better elsewhere, but a short version is something like this:

1. We humans have agency, that is desires & goals to accomplish. For a child it can be as basic as I'm hungry -> eat food, but this is something that gives us normative structure (you should do a thing). For example if I have the goal of graduating from school I should attend classes, I should do homework, etc.

2. Every goal you wish to accomplish can have different requirements, but two that are always present are the freedom to pursue your goals and the wellbeing to accomplish tasks necessary to achieve your goals. So you would need the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and achieve your goals.

3. Because your agency gives you the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and accomplish your goals, then everyone's agency grants them the same rights.

If you accept the 3 items above then violate other people's freedom and wellbeing then you would be objectively wrong and inconsistent in your beliefs, because you believe you have rights by agency but deny those same rights to others by the same reason (agency) they hold.

Give her a tour of the most godawful nursing home to show her future when she no longer has "value."

Seriously, I feel like the owners of those places would feed their clients to the woodchippers if they could get away with it.

Don't worry about it. You'll save a ton of cash later, if you catch my drift.

I think I've said this before to you a few weeks ago, and I totally understand that it's easier said than done to cut family off, but your family are negative influences in your life and on your psyche, and you should be ignoring their bullshit and get away from them.

Sorry your family still sucks, all I can offer are platitudes I'm afraid.

To answer your question though, I think a good, solid "Shit up, shit-bagel, you wouldn't have shit if it weren't for me and no amount of denial on your part can change facts." and walk away/block/slam the door.

Do you mean deserve instead of serve?

Nazi.

One word is enough.

Pinpoint her ideology or religion and you will find venerated figures that didn't "provide value." For instance if we're talking about productive labour in the capitalist sense, Jesus didn't have a job (for most of the bible's narrative). Confucius? Similar story, I think. Any philosopher or religious figure...

Value really becomes subjective. If you're a writer like Ayn Rand or George Orwell, of course you have been very successful, but many people don't find value in your work, because they disagree with you.

Our ability to provide value is also fairly contingent on those around us, the head-start they've given to us, and the problems or trauma we have to overcome.

If she thinks that depression is just an excuse for laziness, then what's her excuse for her laziness?

It is simple, if not trivial, to go look up what depression means, for example, on Wikipedia. She hasn't done this, and we know that because her understanding of depression doesn't match the actual definition, so her opinion on depression stems from her laziness.

She implies that other people's laziness is a bad thing, so why does she think it's okay for her to express such laziness and lazy opinions?

I would read up on Albert Ellis' , concept of Acceptance, both for your own schema, and for dealing with your mother.

Undertanding and working on your acceptances can be life changing.

BTW, Ellis is a hugely influential psychologist, one of the founders of behavioral cognitive therapies, so no new age pop psychology here.

I believe everyone has value. You might have born in the wrong time period to FULLY utilize that value, but that doesn’t mean you have NO value.

With that said. Don’t mind the voices that tear you down. Surround yourself with people that CARE.

Nothing you say will influence that level of callous, cruel, self-centered, unempathetic evil. I would say nothing and never talk to her again. Ultimately, a person can only change themselves, and she has chosen to be monstrous. She is more likely to influence you than you are to influence her, because you can see beyond yourself and she does not.

From your posts it sounds like you really just need to get away from your family, sorry.

It sounds like she doesn’t understand how the brain works differently and in a person with depression.

Unfortunately, she probably isn’t willing to learn. I know a lot of people with similar opinions feel like they know everything.

I’m sorry you have to go through that.

sounds like a right winger would say. is your mom working, if shes a sahm , she literally just the thing she described.

value is subjective. start there. in an hour, you should be able to uncover either a latent Marxist, monarchist, or fascist.

I'd say your mom has zero value offered to my life; therefore, while my value to her is zero, the reverse is also true so I don't have to care what she thinks.

Obviously, it's different for you.

I would share a story I often share with people who have to deal with difficult people. It's a parable, so it doesn't have to be true to make its point. You can dress up the story however much you want, but the essence of it is "I was walking with my father out of the grocery store when a homeless man asked him for money. My father gave him $20 (or whatever local currency is a couple hours' wage, buys a couple meals, or a big bottle of cheap booze) and I said, 'Dad, you know he's just going to use that to buy drugs or alcohol, right?' and he said to me, 'Well son, that says more about him than it does about me.'" We do what we do because of who we are, not because of who someone else is (to say that $20 would have gone better to a battered women's shelter or something like that). In this case the father just wanted to help somebody. So to apply that to your mom, I would say those people who don't have value to her don't need her approval to go on living. They're going to do what they do because of who they are, and who she is determines what she will do. If that makes any sense.

As for the depression thing, well, that's just incorrect. It's like saying any disease or illness is an excuse for something or representative of a certain group of people. It's as unreasonable and lazy-minded as calling AIDS "the gay cancer." Because yes, there is some correlation there (that is to say, AIDS can be transmitted through unsafe sex, and in the 1980s, when that slogan was popular, the gay culture was very promiscuous; likewise, depression does seem to present as laziness, to the untrained observer), but it's not a very educated thing to say and only makes the person look mean, and/or uneducated.

So for a "quick & dirty" answer, I would tell her that expressing those opinions in public could make her look bad. If you come from a conservative Asian background (assuming from the username — apologies if I'm wrong) you could also add that it brings shame to you and others, and in either case remind her that sometimes it is better to be assumed a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Despite this long message, which I tried to make well-thought out and cover all bases, IRL I don't speak much. We open ourselves to criticism and doubt when we speak, so I listen, and observe, choose my words carefully. ;)

Plenty of people have told you already that she sounds toxic, that you should cut ties, etc. I don't disagree, but if you do want a rebuttal:

What value does she provide to society now? And what value would she provide if, say, she was injured in such a way that she couldn't work anymore? What about when she retires? Does she think she should be culled in either of those cases?

Society works better when people know their loved ones are safe, regardless of their ability to contribute. Because when society doesn't take care of the less able, their loved ones have to; often at the expense of society.

Narcissists and people who struggle with empathy often miss that this is in their own self interest, because they often have trouble seeing that most people won't participate much in a society that doesn't help their loved ones.

Fuck off mum

The rebuttal is:

Go no contact, if she ever asks why you don't talk to her anymore, tell her she's a complete monster.

My rebuttal is "your mom is a b***h". Cut contact as soon as you can; you don't need someone like that in your life. She doesn't value other human beings, and she doesn't have empathy for the suffering of others. She sounds like a nasty person to be around and all she will do is bring you down - either through her constant negativity or though her hatred of others.

You don't need to rebut her words - she is an adult and has made her choices - you just need to accept she is not a good person and move on as soon as you can.

From my experience, people who say this either highly value themselves or are/were depressed and hate(d) themselves for it.

Don't waste too much time trying to change their mind and just keep it in mind the next time they say something.

No.

"Fuck you mom!"

Then walk out and never speak to her again.

Sounds a lot like "how you feel doesn't matter, your right to exist depends on being useful to me."

Which calls for acquiring leverage and using it to set boundaries, more than it calls for a rational rebuttal. Just gotta systematically remove the power such people have over you, and then they won't be able to talk to you that way anymore.

There isn't a ton to say, as she likely does not want or is willing to be convinced otherwise. If you know that her view is untrue (which, it is. There are, quite literally, millions upon millions of people who live fulfilling, good lives with depression. There are also people who provide "value" to the community through employment or otherwise who do not necessarily deserve to live.), then you do not have to value it. It's the same way you wouldn't value a Flat Earther's screeching about you being wrong about sphere Earth; they are beyond reason, and are not worth the energy needed to combat their views. It's tough, because it is your mother, but motherhood does not mean you are wise or well-lived. The barrier for entry to parenthood is extremely low.