Ask Lemmy

Why rebut it? You aren't going to use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get to. Especially someone that probably thinks you owe them your existence. You'll never win that argument, don't ask me how I know.

If you're still living at home, make it priority to determine a way to make it on your own ASAP, or be prepared to eat shit until you figure that out.

Oh, she's in for a rude awakening one day

prove to me that you have value

And then demand that she proves every turtle on the way down. Money is not an indication of value because it has no inherent worth, etc.

Demand that she proves that your value is attributable to her and is not inherent to you. Etc.

Ask her what "value" is.

You can tell her she's a negative person who devalues other humans to make herself feel important.

You can simply tell her that when she speaks like that you personally think less of her.

Well, what is value ? What's her "value" ?

Helping others is of enormous value.

Nothing, someone with that world view isn't worth talking to. I've argued with enough brick walls in my life to recognize one.

Wow. Your mom has horrible opinions. If she has a lot more opinions on the same level, I'd cut ties altogether.

1. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't care enough to think critically about the situation. If you play chess with a pigeon, the outcome of the game doesn't matter. Its still gonna shit on the board and strut around like it won.

2. I know you didn't ask, but find you some green spaces. Depression isn't a choice, but choosing to be depressed in a less depressing place is. Control what you can.

Measuring people by what they can give to others or to capitalism is utterly wrong. EVERYONE has value to someone else.

This sounds like psychopathy (also a trait of borderline and narcissism, although there's an argument to be made that psychopaths are distinct from those).

I wouldn't expect a logic based rebuttal to work - all of these conditions are essentially emotional in nature, compensating for a negative past (shame) or compensating for a negative future (generalised anxiety).

This compensation is specifically grandiosity - a cognitive distortion to set themselves up as superior in their own minds, such that they no longer need to be ashamed or anxious.

Contempt is a manifestation of grandiosity, or more precisely a reaction to shame, transforming the realisation of their perceived inferiority in the past or future into the delusion of superiority.

Who is she to decide who deserves to live? God?

Of course, I'd hesitate to accept such a judgment from a god who presumably made those people that way. That would be a dick move.

As for pronouncements about mental health, I will accept citations, or maybe credentials. With neither, hers have no value.

"And what exactly makes YOU valuable?"

Other option, Louis Theroux that shit

Just don't react, but keep asking "why" type questions, again, just acting interested, like you think they could convince you if they're just explain it better.

Make them try to argue their own way into a hole until they're either so pissed off they drop it, or they start to disbelief their own thoughts.

It works cause you're not arguing against stupid that way, you're making stupid argue against itself, and nothing beats that

Your mom is a bitch.

"What the fuck is wrong with you??"

Tell your mom I don't see her value, she should consider seizing existence at my most earliest convenience. Seems fair?

Mostly joking but wtf is this cruel take from her? I'm sorry if you're having to battle this with her if you're struggling with things like depression anxiety

This won’t help your mom, she won’t change her mind and will try to drag the argument or will just attack until everything is destroyed. But here’s a clear rebuttal of the idea.

The failure of demanding everyone showing worth is determining what is worth and who gets to define and assign it. Every petty warlord believes they are the one to decide… and oh gee, amazing how they have the most worth.

If you tell your mom you will only accept her argument if she accepts you have more worth than her - and demonstrates it to you every day - it will probably make her go no contact until she needs you again for emotional affirmation.

Depression is real, I don’t have it but it’s real and I have friends that deal with it as part of their lives. It sounds like getting out of your mom’s sewer might help, but you might need medication as well.

That value is subjective, and that it sounds like her thinking of it as an objective metric makes her a horrible person.

Also, obligatory aside, seeing as this is the internet: I didn't fuck your mom. Nor would I; She sounds awful.

You mother had exactly one decision she got to make in regards to your life, and she already made it. She either needs to live with the consequences amd responsibilities of that decision, or learn to move on with her life.

It sounds harsh. But, if her love is based on how useful you are to her... Then that's not family, that's slavery.

Don't argue, she's obviously toxic. Leave her life. The furthest away you can. People who think like that just abuse and ruin others, and if you're at the point where you wonder whether she's using "special techniques" or smthg, it means she got to your mental health. See a therapist to mend what was broken, and get away from this toxic woman.

There have been some very helpful replies already so I'm just going to add this:

Imagine if your kids came to you and told you they were depressed (if you don't have kids, imagine you do and you love them very much).

Then imagine that -of all the things you could possibly say to them- you chose to tell them what your mother told you.

How would you feel about yourself as a parent (or even as a human being) if you did that? Essentially calling your own children worthless for being sick?

It's ok to feel that same way about your mother.

It's projection. She knows that in her retirement she has stopped "providing value". I doubt she paid you for the ad-hoc legal and accounting work you did for her, so she is happy for you to provide value without compensation. I would simply tell her that if she doesn't want to have to find her own retirement home she needs to start paying for your services. This is the kind of person who thinks value is what you pay for, so long as she isn't paying you she isn't valuing what you do for her. The whole "you are a negative value" is exactly what she is to you, she is taxing your time, energy and emotions to make up for some perceived economic loss for raising a child she chose to have.

I'm sorry your parents were so hard on you, it wasn't your fault and didn't deserve it.

I don't think there is much to say to that, other than a genuine "I'm happy for you that you have never had to struggle with depression. I hope you stay healthy, I wouldn't wish this illness on anyone."

My best advice is, don't try to change your mom's mind. Instead, focus on your own beliefs, and find a way to accept that she isn't ready to do the same and may never be.

Some things that might help you:

1) Understand that criticism can be a form of love, especially from our parents

When people who love us criticise us, it's usually because they want us to improve. It's not just to make you feel bad. Instead the feelings of shame are intended to motivate you to do better because they want you to be the best version of yourself.

It's not effective, and it hurts, but it helps me to reframe criticism in that way. Ask yourself, who made the comment, and why do you think they did so? If it's someone you don't respect, ot you think just wanted to be nasty, ignore it. If it's someone that you believe cares about you, ask yourself whether it could be an inefficient expression of caring. If the latter, let go of the hurt as inefficient, and try to consider objectively whether they may have a point, and what (if anything) you can or want to do about it.

2) Create and live a definition of value that you believe to be true.

Sadly, modern society teaches that our worth is based on our productivity and our school / work success. It sounds as if your mom may have internalised this belief, and it's possible that a lot of her own self esteem relies on it. That's why it could be very difficult for her to let go of. You can though.

Ask yourself, who are the people in your life that you value, that you care about? Consider them one at a time and ask yourself why they matter to you. You will notice very quickly that your answers have nothing to do with their productivity or their success. It will be their kindness, their sense of humour, their reliability, the way a smile lights up their face, etc.

Then ask yourself, how well do I embody these characteristics that I value in others? Try to be true to your definition of value, and feel empathy for those people who believe the lie that only productivity enriches our society.

**3) Accept that depression creates a burden for the people around you and try to minimise it
**
It's not your fault that you're ill, but that doesn't make it any easier for the people around you. Mental illness is a reason for struggling with certain things, not an excuse to dump the burden on others.

The low energy of depression means you need to prioritise what you do. Some of it should be activities that make you feel better, like going into nature, keeping a gratitude journal, or phoning a friend. Some of it needs to be being a good friend, partner, and child. Figure out what the other person needs and how much you can do.

Why did your mom mention laziness? Was it frustration at something she expected from you that you aren't doing? Can you negotiate and agree lower expectations from her? A discussion to understand her priorities could help diffuse some of her frustration.

Hopefully something in this helped you. Good luck.

No rebuttal necessary. Anyone that shitty isn’t worth having a conversation with at all.

tell her that at one time women who could no longer give birth or provide for the family were considered worthless. at this point in time what does she think her value would be in a society that believes women are to be used as breeding stock and slave labor?

regardless of what she says follow up with, why does she believe she has value when clearly she's past her prime and can no longer provide children or support the family?

fight fire with fire. if she wants to follow archaic social behaviors throw them back in her face.

Wow, your mom sucks. Get her out of your life.

Your mom’s view toward mental health is backwards and unhelpful. Her way of thinking prevents people from getting the counseling, medicine, and / or guidance they need for their mind. Next time she has a physical injury, she should just suck it up and stop being lazy.

She is obviously mentally ill. She lacks the ability to empathize with others so she very well may be a psychopath or have a cluster b personality disorder. My advice is that she should see a therapist and if she doesn’t you should minimize contact or cut her off because she’s obviously very toxic

No rebuttal. Not worth fighting over. Probably can't change her, and who would it really help if you did? If the horrible things people believe are of no consequence to anyone else, just let them believe it. You can't save people from themselves.

Look her straight in the eye and say:

"You are embarrassing yourself."

Do you think she is able to change her mind? If not, maybe it's not worth trying to refute whatever she can say or think.

I was still a child when I realized my mom and I would never agree on much. At first, I tried hard to force her to understand my point of view on whatever was at stake, not realizing the contradiction between 'understanding' and 'forcing'. I was barely a teen when I realized that contradiction and that it was useless to insist. It mattered even less that back then I knew for a fact I would not be spending my life with her, also I know I could spend time people with whom I felt... more welcomed/understood. Back in the 70s and early 80s, it was simpler for young kid to spend time outside of the house, even with perfect strangers... No idea how hard it has become for kids nowadays but I'm afraid this won't help them find some peace and hope (as a child, my life was more painful within my family than with any of those strangers I met outside and spent as much time as I could with).

Who decides what's valuable? She probably isn't valuable under certain metrics. She thinks broken legs are being lazy?

I don‘t believe in laziness. There is no scientific proof for laziness but plenty evidence that points in the opposite direction. It‘s as ridiculous of a concept as an almighty god. Possibly even more outlandish.

Boredom is torture. Nobody is acting lazy out of choice. We simply spend our energy at unproductive things sometimes. But honestly? Isn’t that what all this circus is about in the end? That we do what we love or that we do things for others because we love them?

Show me one „lazy“ person and I‘ll tell you why they‘re not actually lazy but occupy themselves with things you or I don‘t deem important. It‘s not laziness. It never is.

Don’t feed the trolls. I know she’s your mom, but not everyone deserves a response. If she keeps on you, just wave her away with “I heard you”.