Ask Lemmy

Laziness dosnt exist, its just how we shame people into doing what we want and everyone is doing there best.

The first part is a new concept to me. Theres a book on it and the concept is pretty interesting. The latter too but I still get hung up on that one.

Both have helped me to understand I have my limits and that's ok.

But yeah. What is lazy. I mean most people don't want to live in situation. They literally can't get out of the rut for otjer reasons, just "wanting to" or "being productive" dosnt fix the underlying cause.

Depression is a luxury of human social bonds, modern safety, and excess. Without that, yes, you get too lazy or too low "value" and Darwin gets you. But that's pretty archaic thinking that doesn't really apply to modern society.

Agree with her. Then say all these old and retired people aren't contributing to the economy anymore and don't deserve to live. Then you ask her how old she is, for effect.

Other option, Louis Theroux that shit

Just don't react, but keep asking "why" type questions, again, just acting interested, like you think they could convince you if they're just explain it better.

Make them try to argue their own way into a hole until they're either so pissed off they drop it, or they start to disbelief their own thoughts.

It works cause you're not arguing against stupid that way, you're making stupid argue against itself, and nothing beats that

"Guess I'll kill myself"

Jesus fucking christ mom. I would ask her to evaluate her contributions to society and really dissect if she ever did anything meaningful in the past or present. Then usher her towards the nearest woodchopper and let her know its time to serve a real purpose.

my rebuttal would be to cut her entirely out of my life.

What "value" does she purport to bring? Just out of curiosity.

"ok boomer"

There is no teaching those who have no interest in learning.

Your mom's a cunt.

Ask her what "value" is.

Try the classic (fully untrue, but who cares, it illustrates the point) quote about Einstein

Einstein failed his classes in high school, but by adulthood he was one of the smartest people in the world. People develop at different paces

Why rebut it? You aren't going to use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get to. Especially someone that probably thinks you owe them your existence. You'll never win that argument, don't ask me how I know.

If you're still living at home, make it priority to determine a way to make it on your own ASAP, or be prepared to eat shit until you figure that out.

Ask your mother what societal value retirees provide, and then ask her where you should dump her once she retires.

She's got the "One for all" part right but she fails to see the flip side of that coin, "All for one". As far as laziness, it reminds me of an old joke I heard..."My parents took me to a doctor because they thought I had mononucleosis. It turns out I was just lazy.".

This sounds like psychopathy (also a trait of borderline and narcissism, although there's an argument to be made that psychopaths are distinct from those).

I wouldn't expect a logic based rebuttal to work - all of these conditions are essentially emotional in nature, compensating for a negative past (shame) or compensating for a negative future (generalised anxiety).

This compensation is specifically grandiosity - a cognitive distortion to set themselves up as superior in their own minds, such that they no longer need to be ashamed or anxious.

Contempt is a manifestation of grandiosity, or more precisely a reaction to shame, transforming the realisation of their perceived inferiority in the past or future into the delusion of superiority.

Every time that philosophy has been implemented it has resulted in mass death and social collapse. Meanwhile when "useless" people are given tools and resources some of them wind up less useless.

Isaac Newton was probably autistic with bad enough social skills he was generally despised. Stephen Hawking had ALS. There are cultures who would have declared both of them useless and unfit for life. Hell Hellen Keller was an author and important political activist (cofounder of the ACLU) despite being deaf blind, because people gave her a chance and worked with her to learn a form of communication that worked for her.

"What the fuck is wrong with you??"

My rebuttal is that your mom's a bitch and there's no reason to pay attention to anything she says.

Your mother is an ignorant person.

Hmph! We don't live to bring value to others! People have their own value, if you treat them like tools, you waste any productivity you generate!

Your mom doesn't have enough value worth your time. You don't change hearts and minds like these. These kinds of people don't change until shit personally affects them, because your mom is an asshole.

She's utterly wrong. Take Robin Williams as an example: he was famous, rich, loved by everybody, stupendously funny. Still had depression. Still suffered.

It has nothing to do with people's "value" or their work ethic.

Look her straight in the eye and say:

"You are embarrassing yourself."

You mother had exactly one decision she got to make in regards to your life, and she already made it. She either needs to live with the consequences amd responsibilities of that decision, or learn to move on with her life.

It sounds harsh. But, if her love is based on how useful you are to her... Then that's not family, that's slavery.

That value is subjective, and that it sounds like her thinking of it as an objective metric makes her a horrible person.

Also, obligatory aside, seeing as this is the internet: I didn't fuck your mom. Nor would I; She sounds awful.

What's is your rebuttal for it?

Don't waste your time and energy on arguments with people who don't want to listen.

That statement has as much empirical evidence behind it as stating that depression is caused by the lost souls of dead aliens from an ancient federation killed by an evil overlord being stuck to your person and generating negative thoughts as a result of their traumatic death.

Hitchen’s Razor is your ally; what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Tell your mom some random on the internet told her she can eat a bag of dicks.

She's a fascist and a nazi because she puts ideologies above human life.

Apart from that, if "useless" people truly didn't have a purpose, then why did nature make them in the first place?

Apart from that, "value" is highly subjective. You can just define your own value and then live by that. Then you have "value".

Apart from that, my experience with these people is that they're ideologically inconsistent. They will follow the rules and think that the rules are a good thing universally, until these very same rules turn around to hurt them. Because they inevitably do. Suddenly, the rules are bullshit and should be abolished. It has happened to my mother. She was a die-hard nazi, saying things such as "useless eaters should be abolished" and "who doesn't work, doesn't deserve to eat" and stuff like that ... She also said that "self-sacrifice for the employer is a good thing, because in the end you will be rewarded" or sth ... she was laid off last year. It was beautiful to see how she slowly realized that hard work does not always pay off and that some employers are just assholes, and that it's not always people's own fault that they're unemployed ... she had a change of heart after that and is less adamant about her earlier ideology now. Sometimes, things still slip through, but she's less aggressive overall.

Don't argue, she's obviously toxic. Leave her life. The furthest away you can. People who think like that just abuse and ruin others, and if you're at the point where you wonder whether she's using "special techniques" or smthg, it means she got to your mental health. See a therapist to mend what was broken, and get away from this toxic woman.

There have been some very helpful replies already so I'm just going to add this:

Imagine if your kids came to you and told you they were depressed (if you don't have kids, imagine you do and you love them very much).

Then imagine that -of all the things you could possibly say to them- you chose to tell them what your mother told you.

How would you feel about yourself as a parent (or even as a human being) if you did that? Essentially calling your own children worthless for being sick?

It's ok to feel that same way about your mother.

You don't need a therapist, she does. Sounds like she is suffering from EDD, aka Empathy Deficit Disorder. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-resilience/201004/are-you-suffering-from-empathy-deficit-disorder

1. All humans have an inherent value.
2. Depression has numerous contributing environmental, social, and biological factors.
3. Who asked bitch? Shut your dumb ass up.

Somebody else pointed out that there is probably nothing you could say or do to change her mind, and I'm sorry to say that's probably correct. She may or may not recognizes she's being emotionally abusive, but the authority she has over you likely gives her a sense of power. Trying to control your emotions by getting a reaction out of you, or making you upset, or making you mask your own emotions to please her (ex:telling you that you're not really feeling how you tell her you feel) gives her a sense of control.

You should know it's very pathetic behavior on her part, but you shouldn't waste your own time and energy trying to change her, or trying to get back at her by saying something mean to hurt her (even though that's exactly what she's priming you to do, and probably what her own parents did to her).

There is a good chance that one day you're going to realize it's just not worth the hassle and stress to have somebody so negative and toxic in your life. You're stuck with her now because she brought you into this world. You had no say in the matter.

That's what makes her obligated to you, (legally at least until you're able to take care of yourself, morally forever because you're always going to be her child that she brought into this world). Her job is to be your mother and accept you as her child.

Your job is to learn who you are and grow into yourself. That's it. You have no other obligation. She might have put a roof over your head and kept you alive, but that's literally bare minimum for every parent. It sounds like her idea of "value" is just doing her bare minimum obligation.

She might not realize it until the day she finds herself alone and longing to have you in her life, but one day it will be your choice, (not your obligation), to decide if you want any relationship or contact with her. She may currently have power and control over you, but she doesn't seem to have much value.

You might want to consider just not bothering to share your feelings and emotions with her anymore. Just talk to her like you would an acquaintance or a customer at work. No need for hostility or being rude, but also no need to make yourself vulnerable to somebody who refuses to respect you.

You can't control her being abusive and crazy. All you can control is your own reaction (and doing so will probably piss her off more than any hurtful thing you could ever say to her). She can be as mean and crazy as she wants, but just try to let it roll of your back and keep yourself neutral in whatever interactions you have. Minimize your time with her until you're able to move out.

I'm sorry she sucks and you deserve better. Maybe someday she can work on herself, and learn to be the kind of mother you deserve. Maybe she can apologize to you and you can forgive her and start a new chapter. If not it's her loss and you shouldn't let the opinion of a vindictive crazy woman make you question your own value.

Learn from her mistakes, and make it your goal to try and be the kind of person you needed around when you were growing up.

Say something as equally callous and ridiculous but angled to harm them like “I think we should euthanize old people,” and then when they get upset say “that’s what you sound like, so shut the fuck up.”

You cannot logically rebut a bad worldview. Plant seeds of doubt, protect yourself, and move on.

tell her to remember that as she ages and her "value" declines

Why does your mom think she can decide who deserves to live?

Your mom is an asshole.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that sort of toxicity in your family. There is no good rebuttal because it just seems like a lack of empathy, no one can make her care.

I'm sure that's rough for you. Wishing you happy holidays despite this callus friction. 💜❤️♥️😘