Leftists Embracing Imperialist Narratives Laid The Groundwork For This Wave Of Censorship : usa

[–] Doug@midwest.social 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yep. Leftists are regularly fighting back against misinformation and carefully crafted narratives designed to make people believe lies even if said narrative isn't expressly untrue.

But masses of anti-war activists and so-called leftists in the US have now decided that war isn’t so bad

Nope. War is still bad, which is why the invading country should stop or be made to stop if they won't do so voluntarily.

Here's a fun exercise. If a foreign hostile power invaded the area you live in, using an excuse that has enough elements of truth to not technically be a flat out lie, how much of that land should be given up to appease them?

It's ok. Don't feel obligated to answer. I'm certainly not coming back to this thread.

[+] queermunist@lemmy.ml -6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

War is still bad, which is why the invading country should stop or be made to stop if they won’t do so voluntarily.

Well you forgot the third option: peace negotiations.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How does that work unilaterally?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Russia has grievances that could be addressed in a negotiation; the question of NATO membership for Ukraine, UN monitored referendums on whether the disputed regions want to stay in Ukraine or join Russia or become independent, a truth-and-reconcilliation to address the legitimate Nazi concerns, etc.

But y'all shit your pants whenever any of this is brought up so we'll just fight to the last Ukrainian instead 😒

[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Who gives a shit about Russia's grievances? You don't get to invade a sovereign nation and murder its people because you dont like the way they do things in their own country. (Or at least your shouldn't, if we lived a sane world). It wasn't right when US did it in Iraq, it wasn't right when Russia did it in Ukraine, and it's certainly not right for Israel to massacre and invade Palestinian land.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If you don't give a shit about your enemy's grievances then you can't expect them to negotiate. That's how it works.

[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I don't expect negotiations with Russia. They have no legitimate legs to stand on. The only acceptable solution should be full withdrawal of all forces from all Ukranian regions and severe international sanctions to cripple their economy even further. You don't get to break into someone else's house and then demand they negotiate with you before you leave or demand they give you one of their rooms for keeps because you don't like who they hang out with.

[–] EthicalAI@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

Exactly

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

The person my neighbor hangs out with is a known serial killer that is openly hostile to me and keeps trying to set up cameras inside my house, yeah, I might try to do something about that lol

I don't see why UN monitored referendums in the disputed regions is so unacceptable. If people want to leave or want to stay, let them decide.

[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The regions are only "disputed" because Russia invaded another sovereign nation under false pretenses 9 years ago, brought in their people, set up sham elections, and is now claiming there's a legitimate, native contingent that wants to break away.

Also, while I won't dispute the serial killer analogy (I get it, USA is a shit hegemon), it's again a bit disingenuous because you yourself have enjoyed chopping up boddies from time to time (to keep the analogy going) so the pearl clutching is not as strong of an argument as you may think. Likewise with the cameras: they're setting up cameras in the neighbors yard, not yours (because again, the neighbors house is NOT YOURS).

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Was it under false pretenses? As far as I'm aware, the Russian speaking minority really didn't support the regime change and there really does seem to be a Nazi problem and the Euromaidan coup really was antirussian (not Russophobic, necessarily, but certainly opposed to Russia) and it really was endorsed by the West. Those are real things that can be negotiated over, Russia isn't just bloodthirsty orcs.

Also, even if I am chopping bodies myself it's still reasonable for me to not want a bigger and meaner body chopper to be friends with the neighbors or to put missile silos in their yard. That's not pearl clutching, that's just rational national interest.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Perhaps so, but the fact is that Putin has stated preconditions for negotiations that Ukraine finds unacceptable. It's not up to me, or anybody in the U.S. government to decide, unless the Ukranian government is a group of puppets without agency. It seems that they are also suspicious of whether he would abide by the terms of a deal, considering the track record of reneging on the past security guarantee, the rhetoric of conquest among his circle, as well as attempting no diplomatic paths to resolve those issues.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

unless the Ukranian government is a group of puppets without agency

You mean the government installed by a Western coup and is being propped up by unlimited aid and resources? Hmmm...

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I’ve heard that accusation plenty, and believed it until I looked into it. Ukrainians in large numbers were willing to fight and die for a movement which wasn’t a coup until the president fled to Russia. They’re not puppets with no agency who can be ordered around from Washington or Brussels. As such, the popular support the government received, and still does, tends to support the idea that it’s not just a Western puppet.

And, even if it was all true, does it not speak strongly against Putin’s willingness to negotiate? He could have tried diplomacy before, but if he chose invasion because he saw Ukraine/NATO as unreliable parties, why would that change now?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

He did try diplomacy before! Shortly after the war began there were talks, and then the US put the breaks on it.

[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Again though, it's disingenuous to say he tried diplomacy when his demands all infringed on a sovereign nation's ability to self govern and determine. And don't give me the NATO bullshit line. Russia was already bordered by other NATO nations. And frankly even if it was not, he doesnt get to decide who they can form deals and relationships with. Theyre no longer a USSR vassal state, no matter how much he'd like them to be. This was a land grab for resources, strategic access, and one old fucks personal delusions of grandeur.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Their "self governance" was disrupted by a coup with support from the West. The actually elected democratic government was dissolved, and the Russian ethnic minority was against this.

As for self determination, why don't ethnically Russian people in Crimea or the Donbass region get to have self determination? The majority sure seem to hate the new government and support Russia.

So! Russia wants territory and Ukraine wants territory. A reasonable compromise would be UN monitored referendums on the question for the people living in those places, with both sides agreeing to respect democratic decision making.

Compromise is possible. Give peace a chance.

[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not going to keep repeating myself. See my response above. TL;DR: you're presenting a false equivalence and the self-determination argument on the Russian side is tainted by their 2014 invasion and the meddling they've done since then to build this so called "native" ethnic Russian coalition.

As for giving peace a chance, I agree with you there. Russia should pull all of their troops from all Ukranian regions and stop attacking its neighbor. It's the aggressor. Ukranians have zero reason to negotiate peace with a hostile foreign invader.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Ukranians have zero reason to negotiate peace with a hostile foreign invader.

They might want to avoid becoming another forever war like Iraq or Afghanistan. Avoiding more bloodshed is, itself, a good reason.

There's a reason there were negotiations before the US put a stop to it.

I think you're being overly moralist and not really looking at this materially.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Russia's grievances are "we can't take your land," you are aggressively stupid if you actually think Russia is cool with peace talks that are actually realistic to what's happened

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

No, Russia's grievances are "we don't want NATO in Ukraine" and "we don't want armed Nazis on our border" and "we don't believe you're treating ethnically Russia people right" and "we believe the government that was allied with us was overthrown by Western intervention"

There's stuff to negotiate over. If you don't want to negotiate over those things then just admit it, stop just pretending like Russians are crazy warhungry orcs.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Oh fucking please, I know you're not this stupid. Russia's grievances are that putin wants to bring all of the old USSR territory back into the fold, either by literally absorbing the territory or by installing puppet states that act as a defacto Russian territory. If Russia's main intent was to avoid NATO expansion, they wouldn't be doing the things that have quite literally prompted countries who previously did not want to join NATO (Sweden, etc) into now pressing to join NATO as a response to Russia's totalitarian aggression. If Russia cared about the nazis in the Wagner group enough to invade, they wouldn't also be perpetuating mass genocide of Ukrainians during their war of aggression. If Russia thought that ethnically Russian people weren't being treated right in another country, they wouldn't be invading said country to move their own citizens into the region and then pretend that means the original region was ethnically Russian.

Russia's bullshit has been so painfully blatant throughout this entire process that I refuse to believe you're actually this dumb. The only things to negotiate is how quickly Russia and the russian citizens it planted in Ukraine after invading need to evacuate from all of Ukraine (including Crimea), and how the Russian officials, including putler, will surrender to the UN for their crimes against humanity.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Orientalism.

This is clearly going no where. I hope you're happy this war will never end.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Not sure what you mean by orientalism but I don't doubt it's lacking in critical thought.

And why would I be happy that a dictator refuses to stop a genocide he created?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

You seem to think Russians are conquest hungry orcs that lack rational thought and hunger only for blood - it's a very common racist trope used to smear Asian people. The reality is complicated and you're simplifying it to justify endless war.

And you must be happy, because you refuse to do anything to actually end the war. Ukraine is only being given aid to keep Russia busy, there is no expectation they can ever win. The goal is to entangle Russia in a quagmire and fight to the last Ukrainian. You love it.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

The only person reducing a people down to their leaders is you; I'm condemning putler and the individuals in power of Russia for creating this war. It's a very common tactic to try and equate calling out the individuals in charge of a country with all the people of the country, as a way to hide behind the fact that you have no legitimate argument to make. Especially when the country in question is in practice a dictatorship. You're gonna have to try a little harder than this to not get caught with your pants down, buddy.

"Let us take over your country and murder your people or we'll try to take over your country and murder your people. And if you resist or support people fighting us from murdering and taking over, then you're the real evil person here." Good take bro, stable genius stuff right here

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

My legitimate arguments are irrelevant. We live in two different realities because this is a choose your own adventure story; you think Putin is an Asiatic orc that craves only power and blood, I think he is being backed into a corner and was provoked by Eastern expansion of NATO and the Euromaidan coup and the collapse of an allied government and the quagmire in Syria over the Western attempt to oust Assad.

To you, he is a stupid orc that is too bloodthirsty to know what's good for him and is destined to lose to Western-backed Ukraine. He also, simultaneously, is the god-emperor of all of Russia and Russians are helpless animals being lead to slaughter by their demon god Putler. So you think endless war will end in the West's favor and not Russia, because he's too stupid and subhuman to possibly win.

Ukraine will be transformed from a breadbasked to a wasteland of land mines and cluster bombs, because you refuse to consider negotiated peace because you actually think Putin is too vile and putrid and monstrous to be negotiated with. Orientalism.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Your continued attempts to mischaracterise what I say bore me

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

lol so how do you think the rest of the world feels when Westoids mischaractarise Russia's goals? "Putin, the absolute ruler of Russia, is a stupid and bloodthirsty orc that wants to kill all Ukrainians and steal their land!"

You're a clown.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You need to try harder than this

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Imagine trying hard at internet arguments.

None of this shit matters honey. We're all just NPCs in the posting RPG.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

🥱

[–] masquenox@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You lost me at "Russian Special Military Operation in Ukraine." You can just call it what it is... an invasion.

And if you think "the left" in the US is so powerful that it could have made any kind of dent in the narratives surrounding Russia's invasion of Ukraine I have to call bullshit.

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

When it comes to war, the two parties are always in agreement. There's way too much Lockheed and friends money ensuring bombs are going to decimate foreign land for any other outcome. The two sides were in total agreement when deciding to start the Ukrainian coup in 2014. Pretty nuts how Russia gets blasted for their move, while the US overthrowing the government and installing a hand picked "president" is consistently glossed over, don't you think?

[–] masquenox@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

When it comes to war, the two parties are always in agreement.

And that's the left's fault how?

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They are one of the two sides, so they're complicate in unnecessary war.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There is no "left" in formal, establishment politics - none. Formal establishment politics is fundamentally right-wing - therefore, blaming the actions of political establishments on any left is inane.

[–] NattyNatty2x4@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago

While you're correct, this alt-right tard is clearly talking about US dems, liberals, and progressives. He doesn't understand the words he's using but we can understand his intent.

That being said, even when we focus on his intent and not the specific terms he used, he's still an idiot parroting disinformation

[–] PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago

Well obviously in a first past the post system there are only two options, so we have to vote for the blue war-mongers, lest the red-warmongers win. This is the narrative that is pushed every single election by many "on the left."

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

The Latte Left AKA virtually all of my professional-managerial class peers, including almost all of the ones who joined the DSA. It seems they’ll never get the several Russiagates out of their heads, despite all of them having been debunked. Fuck you, Rachel Maddow.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's really hard to contain the snark in response to this screed. But, this is also a serious question: When you lump large numbers of people, each with their own beliefs, principles, and motivations, into a fictitious group you dub "the Latte Left," isn't shocking how they don't all speak and act in a consistent manner?!

That is, when criticizing and throwing accusations of perfidy, name names and bring receipts. None of this innuendo, and absolutely no passive voice. As far as I can tell, this author isn't talking about any real person.

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I understood it to be referencing how many moves are made with unanimous consent in the Senate and the House. The fact is in the states Bernie is considered a far left socialist by most, while in Europe he'd be considered center right. This being the case, the term "Latte Left" is an attempt to demonstrate there's no actual left option in the US. Regardless of which party someone votes for, both are war hungry and willing to sell their votes.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm tired after a long day of work, so I may be missing something, but...

If there's no actual left in the U.S., then how can leftists be to blame for laying the groundwork for anything?

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

While in the big picture they are conservative, they still are referred to as the left in the US due to the other party being more conservative. Basically it's conservative vs more conservative, but by classifying them as left provides the illusion of having liberal and conservative political options.

[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Which rather bolsters my observation that the author isn’t really talking about real people that exist, just the imaginary leftists that Republican politicians love to blame.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Bullshit. Y'all think censorship didn't exist before?

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

"This wave of censorship", but you're right as in the big picture this is nothing new.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The loudest voices who criticize the imperial core were always silenced, all that has changed is Pax Americana has weakened too much to allow dissent from literally anyone.

[+] charonn0@startrek.website 1 points 2 years ago

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