🐆 Right-wing trans woman finds out "gender-criticals" cannot be reasoned with : progressivepolitics

[–] logicbomb@lemmy.world 46 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Even after all of that, she still doesn't get it:

I think many of our most extreme ideas are bad. But theirs are worse.

The problem is that "our" (using quotes as I'm only progressive, not LGBTQ+) most extreme ideas are only held by a minority of progressive people, and meanwhile the things she thinks are their "most extreme ideas" are the ones that she saw personally, while interacting with people who don't mind interacting with a trans-woman. Those aren't their "most extreme ideas." They're their mainstream ideas.

She's comparing our most extreme ideas against their mainstream ideas.

[–] traceur402@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not sure who she's referring to when she says our there but whoever it is would be insane to invite her in with that take

[–] logicbomb@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Also, she doesn't say what our most extreme ideas are. The most extreme idea she mentions is allowing trans-women to compete in women's sports. But I think that's probably a mainstream belief, and also the one that is best supported by science.

(Meanwhile, the most extreme idea of theirs that she mentions is that trans-women should face non-stop violent rape if they go to prison.)

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 15 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

Also, she doesn’t say what our most extreme ideas are.

If I were to try to define the most extreme positions held by any in our community (in regards to trans issues), they might be:

Bathroom access based on identity only. Very few people are actually like this. But some folks would say that all that is needed to switch bathrooms is identifying as a different gender. So it's perfectly acceptable for a person dressed in male clothing, with a beard, using a deep voice, etc. to use the women's restroom as long as they identify as female. Very few trans folks would be caught dead doing that. Most recognize that there is a certain give and take, a negotiation of social spaces. I imagine most would say you shouldn't have to pass in order to use the bathroom, but most would recognize that it's going to cause a ton of unnecessary friction and hate if someone fully masculine-presenting uses the women's restroom. I don't think people who can't pass should be banished from the bathroom that matches their identity. But I myself would be very uncomfortable sharing the women's restroom with an entirely masculine-presenting person, trans or not.
Unrealistic/impractical pronoun expectations. Some folks confuse "gender is a social construct" with "nothing is real and nothing matters." Pronouns are a social construct. That doesn't mean they mean nothing; it means they have socially constructed definitions. If I invent a new pronoun tomorrow and start demanding others call me it, that isn't a social construction. That's just something I invented and am now imposing on others without their participation or consent. In order to socially construct something, there must be a meeting of the minds, a shared milieu of understanding. A pronoun, if you expect people to actually use it, can't be something you just invented. It has to be something negotiated among a large number of people. This is why the pronouns people tend to actually use are he, she, and they. Most others get little use beyond extremely online teenagers. Pronouns are meant to be shorthand for characteristics of your identity. If your pronoun is so unique that no one has any idea what the hell it means, you're not using a pronoun, you're just using a nickname.
Sports based purely on identity with no qualifiers. I support trans women playing on women's teams and trans men playing on men's teams. But that's not just because of identity, but because I recognize that the science says that trans women don't have any advantages after a few years on HRT. I wouldn't however support trans women who still have male testosterone levels competing on women's teams. That's just about basic fairness. But, some would say that it's just sports, and that respect for identity matters more than athletic fairness, and that no one should have to seek out medical treatment they may not otherwise want. Fair enough, but I would disagree.

Still, these are extremes. The vast, vast majority of trans people wouldn't switch bathrooms before at least changing their presentation, use pronouns they can actually expect other people to use, and wouldn't expect to switch sports teams without altering their own hormones. If TERFs really were interested in compromise, these are the issues we could compromise on. So maybe we restrict bathrooms based on legal identity, but in turn we make it really easy to change your legal identity, say up to once per year. And we have clear social expectations about the rules of bathrooms. So it's OK if you don't fully pass, but you shouldn't be rocking a beard in the women's restroom. Or, we come to a compromise on pronouns. You can have your close friends call you whatever you want, but the only pronouns you should expect others to recognize are the broad and generic he, she, and they. We compromise by, for example, making it workplace harassment to not respect someone's pronouns. But in turn we trans people also don't demand that people learn hundreds of new pronouns or start referring to human beings as inanimate objects. Or, we regulate sports, but we don't try to ban trans people from sports all together. We follow the science that says trans women have no advantage after a few years on E. You can't change your teams based purely on self-ID, but we do give trans men and women a clear and open path to participate fully and equally in athletics.

If TERFs and other conservatives really were just looking for a reasonable compromise, these are the types of issues we could compromise on. But, as the post notes, you give these bastards an inch and they'll take a mile.

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[–] BabyVi@lemmy.world 14 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (5 children)

Me over here with actually somewhat radical positions.

All HRT should be available OTC. (Yes, including T.)

A parent denying a child access to puberty blockers should be required to pay reparations if the child continues to identify as trans into adulthood.

Require unisex bathrooms for any business larger than a bananna stand.

[–] krooklochurm@lemmy.ca 5 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (6 children)

I don't believe parents should be able to make any permanent decisions about a child's body.

This includes hormones, tattoos, genital mutilation of any kind, plastic surgery, piercings.

Children cannot provide consent for anything.

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[–] squirrel@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 1 day ago (1 children)

For those who are not familiar with Brianna Wu: She has tried to be a left-wing grifter, before she discovered that it got her nowhere and thus decided to be a right-wing grifter instead. She tried to the right-wing's "good trans woman", agreeing with everything they said, until the above message. And yeah, she is already trying to spin this yet again...

And if you think that all of that is rather weird, she is also the creator of this masterpiece.

[–] 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

what the hell was that last image

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 6 points 20 hours ago

Progressives have given so much ground that their encampment is on middle-ground.

[–] MimicJar@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Importantly there is an immediate follow up tweet,

2/ I consider my business settled with all trans sisters. If anyone wants to reset things, unblock and move forward, I am happy to do that

I'm glad she was able to admit she was wrong, that's absolutely a step in the right direction, but it's just a step. I don't want to speak of behalf of "trans sisters", but I certainly wouldn't consider the matter closed. She's apologized, great, but there is A LOT more work to be done.

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[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 1 day ago (1 children)

i like how she’s still worried about "our extreme ideas"

what extreme ideas??? that trans women should compete in women’s sports??? the extreme idea that trans women are women???

i’d say my most extreme idea is that trans kids should be able to start HRT when they (and their cis peers) start puberty. and that’s only an extreme idea if you believe that trans kids are less deserving of a normal puberty than cis kids.

[–] krashmo@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I realize this isn't exactly the point of the thread but you offered the opinion so I assume you're OK with expanding on it. If not that's alright too.

How do you reconcile the ideas that children:

Aren't mature enough to consent to sex
Are mature enough to consent to permanently altering their bodies through HRT

To be clear, this isn't meant to be an antagonistic question in any way. I haven't given much thought to the topic and it seems like you have so I am interested in hearing your perspective.

[–] Armand1@lemmy.world 9 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Underage sex and HRT are not really comparable.

That said I advocate for puberty blockers rather than HRT for adolescents myself. That allows them to safely postpone their decision if they are unsure and lets them decide when they are adults.

I'm not a doctor though, it's best to ask an endocrinologist (I think) to determine what's best for a child.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 5 points 23 hours ago

You're right. We should put all teenagers on puberty blockers until age 18. The high E or T spikes that occur with natal puberty dramatically change the body. And, we know that people absolutely can have puberty safely delayed for a long time. The AVERAGE age for girls to reach menarche was 17-18 before the industrial revolution. We actually have kids going through puberty at an age that is radically young by historical standards.

So we should put all kids, cis or trans, on puberty blockers. That way we don't have to worry about a cis kid mistakenly starting transition, or a trans kid not realizing they're trans in time and having to go through a natal puberty. Everyone just puts off puberty until they're done with high school. As a bonus, no more teen pregnancy!

/s

But really, the answer to your question is that it's poorly framed. We do let children, well specifically teenagers, consent to sex. But, just like trans healthcare, we do it in very carefully controlled settings. Teenagers are going to have sex. That's something that is simply going to happen. So in sane places, we have kids go through sex education. We teach them safe sex practices and teach them on healthy relationship patterns. And we try to encourage any teens that do choose to be sexually active to use protection and get on birth control. Oh, and we legally regulate teen sex without trying to ban it. We pass Romeo and Juliet laws that try to thread the needle. You don't want 40 year olds sleeping with 12 year olds, but you also don't want to put a 15-year old on the sex offender registry for sleeping with their 14-year old classmate. You use your brain, don't fall for moral panics, and try to design systems that navigate a very complex ethical landscape.

And really it's the same here. We're talking about people in the exact same age range - people 12-18. And we handle gender-affirming care for minors with a similar complexity and intelligence. We don't let 12 year old trans boys go on Amazon and order up vials of T shots. But we also don't infantilize trans kids either. We have them go through therapy and clinical assessment. We have clinical guidelines on what treatment is appropriate when. And most importantly, we don't fall for the naturalistic fallacy, which you have done. We recognize that just because something is natural does not mean it is good or desirable. Forcing a trans kid to go through a natal puberty is just as cruel and barbaric as dosing a cis kid with cross-sex hormones against their will. And we recognize that barbarity of telling 100 trans kids that they simply have to go through the trauma of natal puberty, just in case one of them happens to regret it later. In other words, we place equal value on the lives and well-being of cis kids and trans kids. You, however, seem to follow the rule of "it is acceptable for a hundred trans kids to suffer through Hell on Earth if it prevents one cis kid from mistakenly transitioning." You fundamentally do not place equal value on the lives of cis and trans people.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

You don't move the Overton window in the direction you want by preemptively moderating yourself. You move it by taking a more extreme position perhaps even than you actually want, in order to normalize it.

[–] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 11 points 1 day ago

Make the middle ground billionaires are humanely executed.

[–] Quexotic 4 points 20 hours ago

The fact that this is dated Nov 1st... How the hell could it take you this long to figure it out??

[–] wowwoweowza@lemmy.world 3 points 19 hours ago

Oh… I know… I’ll walk through the chainsaw robot cave… they are triggered by motion… they tear anything that moves to shreds… yeah, that’s where I’m going to walk…

[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I feel like I'd rather die for having to much faith in humanity than too little. And on that metric, I can't help but think BriannaWu was doing something right approaching right-wing nutjobs the way she did.

But more importantly, I'd rather not die in either of the aforementioned ways. What she did was definitely done out of (perhaps admirable) naïveté. And she's clearly grown as a person from the experience.

All that said, I don't know that she's got the best positions on everything. She says she believes that "trans women don't belong in women's sports" and she wants a "middle ground on bathrooms", both of which seem... problematic (even if the right wing wasn't so maximalist and radical about things.) And that part makes me wonder if the rest of the tweet was made in good faith, honestly.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Even if it is, she needs to sit her ass down and talk to other trans people irl. Like, this is terminally ill online brainrot and it's internet famous brainrot. Ms Wu needs therapy, she needs to go to a day of remembrance ceremony, and she needs to delete Twitter.

She comes to us as a sister again, but she still ain't treating us as one. We don't call each other family because it's some quirky thing, we do it because our community is filled with people who lost our families over this, where people we know will be buried with the wrong name. So yeah, she's my sister, but I don't think she thinks of us as such and I think she's been very out of touch with us for a long time.

[–] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 16 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We don't want compromise with the far-right. We want FULL POLITICAL POWER 💪🏼

[–] Armand1@lemmy.world 2 points 23 hours ago

Nah I don't think we need full political power. I'd settle not giving it to anyone on the right at the moment. Lets not have any more societal backsliding at least.

[–] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago (3 children)

It's easy to dunk on how wrong she used to be, Brianna absolutely and clearly was. But now that even she agrees, it's not super helpful to mock her about it.

There are a oodles of different social pressures to conform for trans women, I truly understand her motivation. Girl let her internalized transphobia take the wheel and went look for nonexistent middle ground. Especially early in transition it's alluring to be *one of the good ones" and get a very specific type of applause for it.

We need to recognize that Bri didn't have to admit her faults, glad she did, but even on far more trivial issues most folk struggle. I'm glad she got here, and I look forward to her being better advocate for our rights. But her past should only be as an example for others, not a crudgel to mock her previous bargaining.

Welcome Hon, glad to see ya. ♥️

[–] BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

She still says she believes in “middle ground” with violent, homicidal, totalitarian fascists. Despite everything, she still hasn’t realized that “middle ground” is a fallacy that rightists use as a trap to take everything from others.

“Meet me in the middle” says the unjust man. You take a step forward, they take a step back. “Meet me in the middle” says the unjust man.

She’s close, I think, but only when you admit that compromising with the unjust is ALWAYS perpetuating injustice can you be forgiven.

[–] HopeOfTheGunblade@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Brianna should go home and read, forever.

She was wrong. She remains wrong. The most help she can be to anyone is to butt the fuck out.

The trans movement in no wise needed a quisling to suck up to TERFs, and we aren't going to coddle her for getting what she was told she would.

This is not a matter of innocent ignorance. This was a matter of willfully ignoring all of the people telling you what would happen, complete with historical record.

[–] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Absolutely agree that Brianna needs to log the fuck off, de-center herself as any sort of repetitive of the community and sort out her own internalized transphobia. She isn't even close off the hook.

This is not a matter of innocent ignorance. This was a matter of willfully ignoring all of the people telling you what would happen, complete with historical record.

100%. I agree completely. She ignored the broader trans community and perpetuated harm, all for selfish self-congratulatory reasons. But what I'm saying is that she recognized the futility and is starting to listen. This no "forgive and forget", but we can't condemn her for admitting she was wrong.

I just don't want others with misguided bigoted talking points thinking that they are trapped in that echo chamber.

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[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I agree in large part, I think she needs to step away from the internet and discourse for a while and actually connect with trans people in real life. Hit up a support group and listen, go to day of remembrance and hang around for a while after just talking about life with people, stuff like that.

I haven't forgiven her yet, but she's still my sister, she just needs to get her shit together and stop hurting the family. And that includes learning that her middle ground is still gonna make us second class citizens (and it's easy to accept it for yourself, but when it's others you care about it's harder, it's why you need community).

I will however say, she's not fresh out, she was out when she was a major target of gamergate like a decade ago. Like idk how she didn't learn by watching Blaire White get used in the same way.

[–] 4am@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 day ago

Better late than never but bitch we ALL warned you

[–] powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago

TBH this is probably just more grifting from Brianna Wu. Are there any actual sources for "laugh as she got aids from being raped" type comments? afaik terfs would be more like "that's unfortunate but not our problem"

[–] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 3 points 1 day ago

Uncle Tom transitioned to Aunty Tom.

[–] MisterOwl@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Fuck off and have the day you voted for.

[–] BanMe@lemmy.world -4 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Stop 👏🏼 arguing 👏🏼 about 👏🏼 trans 👏🏼 issues 👏🏼

She's right about one thing, it's a slope we can't gain any traction on right now, and the more time we spend on it, the more we slide backwards with both actual trans rights and voter opinion.

Every time someone attacks on trans rights just say "shut the hell up, who cares, look at the disaster of an economy we're all suffering in."

[–] traceur402@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 1 day ago

Not defending our lives is the losingest strategy of them all

[–] trevor@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 1 day ago

Fuck that. Trans people are my friends. Transphobes can catch these hands.

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