this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2025
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And here I was waiting to get unplugged, or maybe finding a Nokia phone that received a call.

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[–] henfredemars 61 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (12 children)

Dr. Faizal says the same limitation applies to physics. “We have demonstrated that it is impossible to describe all aspects of physical reality using a computational theory of quantum gravity,” he explains. 

“Therefore, no physically complete and consistent theory of everything can be derived from computation alone.”

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

Impossible to describe does not mean that it’s not possible to simulate, and impossible is an incredibly strong criterion that sounds quite inaccurate to me. We simulate weather systems all the time, even though the systems are fundamentally chaotic and it’s impossible to forecast accurately. We don’t even know that gravity is quantum, so that’s quite a weird starting point but we’ll ignore that for a second. What is this argument?

This seems like a huge leap to conclude that just because some aspects of our understanding seem like we wouldn’t be able to fully describe them somehow means that the universe can’t be simulated.

“Drawing on mathematical theorems related to incompleteness and indefinability, we demonstrate that a fully consistent and complete description of reality cannot be achieved through computation alone,” says Dr. Faizal.

Who’s to say that reality is completely defined? Perhaps there are aspects to what we consider the real universe that are uncertain. Isn’t that foundational to quantum mechanics?

[–] squaresinger@lemmy.world 18 points 2 days ago

What bothers me most is that they equate a model with reality.

Quantum gravity theory is our current working model that we use to describe our observations. It's not reality itself, and no scientist worth their money would claim that it is, because if it was, physics would be solved and it isn't.

That's how science works: We have observations, we build models to describe them, then we have more observations that don't fit the old models, so we build newer models that also describe the new observations. Since we aren't omnicient, there's always something we can't observe (yet) and what we can't observe we also can't describe.

“Therefore, no physically complete and consistent theory of everything can be derived from computation alone.”

This, in fact, would fit quite well to an imperfect simulation that doesn't perfectly follow all the rules we made up when observing.

[–] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 5 points 2 days ago

We simulate weather systems all the time, even though the systems are fundamentally chaotic and it’s impossible to forecast accurately.

The amount of computer power used to run those simulations is immense, and even then, the predictive capacity of those models starts degrading rapidly around 7 to 10 days ahead. There's some amazing science that goes into those models, but the results are hard-won. And what we know about more energetic systems (say, the magnetohydrodynamics of the sun) is far less comprehensive.

And be careful with that "fundamentally chaotic" assertion: there are degrees of how chaotic a system is, and some aspects of a system can be more deterministic than others.

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[–] Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 day ago

I highly suggest to listen to this podcast with Damien P. Williams and Paris Marx:

“No, we don't live in a f---ing simulation”

https://ouropinionsarecorrect.libsyn.com/no-were-not-living-in-a-f-ing-simulation

[–] lung@lemmy.world 39 points 2 days ago (4 children)

This is such a boring take, I wonder how anyone gets funding or publication making a statement as useless as "see godels incompleteness theorem that proves that there's more truth than what mathematics can prove, therefore reality is not a simulation". Yes, we know, you don't need a PhD to know the major theorem that took down the entire school of logical positivism. The fundamental philosophical error here is assuming that all forms of simulation are computational or mathematical. Counterexample: your dreams are a form of simulation (probably). So I can literally disprove this take in my sleep

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 30 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The fundamental philosophical error here is assuming that all forms of simulation are computational or mathematical.

Uh... that's literally what a simulation is.

Counterexample: your dreams are a form of simulation (probably). So I can literally disprove this take in my sleep

But dreams aren't simulating reality as we observe it; they just kinda do their own thing. Your brain isn't consistently simulating quantum mechanics (or, hell, even simple things like clocks) while you're dreaming so this is a moot point.

[–] lung@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago (4 children)

People who are lucid dreaming simulate a full reality that's nearly indistinguishable from the one they find themselves in during waking time. If your brain can't tell the difference during this time, how can you be sure you're not dreaming right now reading this?

The scope of what a simulation is has always been limited by the technology we know. It is only a failing of imagination and knowledge to assume that algorithmic computation is the only valid form of simulation in the future, these have existed for barely 100 years, but even Plato's cave was talking about the larger philosophical problem

[–] FauxLiving@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago (1 children)

People who are lucid dreaming simulate a full reality that’s nearly indistinguishable from the one they find themselves in during waking time.

You're not describing a simulation, you're describing a perception. A person perceives that they're seeing an indistinguishable reality, but we know that people's brains do not have the computational power to simulate molecular motion in even a cubic centimeter of air.

Or, if they look at the stars, are they then simulating an infinite space with infinite mass and all of the associated interactions inside of their finite brain? Of course not, that would be impossible.

Dreams are perceptions, not simulations.

[–] lung@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The mind while lucid dreaming is creating a whole environment, which for some people has incredible level of detail. Your "consciousness" is experiencing a whole video game or whatever, which must be simulated to be percieved. Imagine you had some kind of really advanced VR setup and body suit that could touch your senses very richly - something must be feeding that perception, a simulation

[–] FauxLiving@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Our brains build a model of the world inside of our head, that’s what we experience.

Those same processes can generate output that isn’t there, we can hallucinate. This is what we’re doing when we’re dreaming. We’re not simulating a world it is computationally impossible.

To perfectly simulate a volume the size of your bedroom for even a few minutes would take millions of years of compute time. That is not happening inside your brain.

[–] henfredemars 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I take issue with completeness in a very similar way. For example, imagine for some reason that in the simulation it’s impossible to think about penguins. Let’s say that penguins are so logically incomprehensible that we cannot implement this.

The implementation of the simulation could simply trap any attempt to think about penguins and replace it with something else. We would be none the wiser. The simulation still works even if there are states that we can’t get to or are undefined.

It could be that reality itself isn’t entirely complete and defined everywhere. Who’s to say this isn’t one big dream and that the sky isn’t there if we all stopped looking?

There is no escape from Plato‘s cave.

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[–] witty_username@feddit.nl 12 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I was under the impression that something along these lines was already accepted from the perspective of information theory. I.e. a machine that could simulate the universe must at least be composed of as much information as the universe itself. Given the vastness and complexity of the universe, this would make it rather unlikely that the universe is simulated. Unless you want to view the universe itself as a machine that calculates it's own progression. But that is a bit of a semantic point.

Disclaimer: this is not my area of expertise and I probably got some terms or concepts wrong. I am basing this off of 'The information' by James Gleick

[–] lemmeLurk@lemmy.zip 20 points 2 days ago (1 children)

But you wouldn't have to simulate the whole universe, only one brain. There is no way for you to know, if everything your brain experiences is caused by it actually happening, or just the neutrons being triggered in that way from outside.

[–] girsaysdoom@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

Solipsism is definitely one way to look at it.

[–] victorz@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

I mean, maybe the machine is five-dimensional and has no problem containing all the information of a three-dimensional universe? I don't know, yadda yadda talking out of my ass.

[–] polle@feddit.org 6 points 1 day ago

Lol. They forgot that thermodynamics existed? If they remembered they were already done before they started.

[–] KazuyaDarklight@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago (6 children)

This doesn't really address the idea that our simulation is a simplified version of the "real" universe though does it?

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[–] xxce2AAb@feddit.dk 15 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Very interesting, although I'm going to withhold judgment pending some serious peer review.

Edit: One person doesn't like peer review to be part of the scientific process.

[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 12 points 2 days ago

This is akin to cavemen concluding there's no way an mri scanner could be possible.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 days ago

Honestly I haven't seen a single article written by someone who actually understands the mathematics involved so I call a huge amount of HORSeSHIT on your headline.

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