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The New Party Fallout Shows That Hero-Worship Gets Us Nowhere (novaramedia.com)

submitted 1 week ago by okwithmydecay@leminal.space to c/uk_politics@feddit.uk

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[–] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

around leftwing celebrities doesn’t work,

Because Bojo and trump have been such a success. The left is far far from unique on hero worshiped leader. I agree it's a bad idea in genrsl. But these events are not the sign.

Sorry bollocks to the whole argument. First JC and ZS are not the leaders of this new party. They are the founders. The whole point of the party. Also the very reason ZS claimed to have acted independently of the others. Was membership control. Both sides openly agree only the membership should have the right to select leaders. ZS just claimed some background actors were trying to limit that before members existed,

The members get to select the leadership once the party is formed. Your party is not being built around anything but the idea of a left wing democratic party.

The current party in government is currently involved in a much bigger breakup where members are being kicked out for political difference. As was the past government and reform. The whole idea that any existing political party is free of such arguments is bull shit with zero credibility.

[–] knowone@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Why bring Johnson and Trump into it? Novara obviously aren't supportive of them

And yeah ostensibly the party is for the members and their control but let's be real, this isn't how it's gone so far. Sultana did this without consensus and took thousands upon thousands of peoples money, they got over £1m in one day. What should have been a huge opportunity to get momentum going and leave behind the shitshow that happened around Your Party being announced in the beginning just turned into an even bigger shitshow

Huge amounts of people feel betrayed by this and rightly so. All those people being lied to and having their money taken, some paying over £50 towards it. And now it's opened the party up to fraud investigations and so on. Not saying the fault is solely with Sultana by the way, just she seems to be most responsible

Your argument is almost entirely whataboutisms. We can't be doing what most people do and just deny wrong that our own side does and deflect with examples of the other side doing the same thing. It doesn't help anything and means we don't learn from mistakes. All of this stuff around membership, fees and so on should have been hashed out so long ago at this point between them, ideally before they even announced the party. It's very basic stuff

We desperately need a united antifascist popular front with as many non-fascists in it as possible. We don't have time to fuck about with stuff like this. I'm not usually one who bangs on about left unity that much but it absolutely needs to happen now. I'm hoping this is the last of the big fuckups and we can get on with stopping our rapid descent into fascism

[–] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Because Johnson and trump are very much relevent to the Idea Hero Worshiping leaders is a left wing thing. All sides are able to do so,

But my wording is trying to be non biased by not claiming one side was correct in there actions.

And you have made some potentially slanderous claims. The membership fees paid to the site are not in ZSs control MOU the group selected by all founders have confirmed this. Both ZS and the MOU members have said the payments go to their accounts. As expected by all those involved in the founding.

So No ZS in no way took the money. The initial set up of MOU was done specifically to prevent any one group having all control.

She did act alone in launching the membership. And failed to inform those signing up she was doing so before 20000 plus joined. But that is all she can be accused of.

As did JCs team act without full authority in launching the roadmap plan. As the agreement was no docs would be released without both founders approval.

Non of us know if her claims that other insiders were taking control are true. But she dose have other insiders backing her claims. And JCs Team only confirmed the people she accused did not have access to the accounts. Dispite the fact ZS did not actually claim that.

My what aboutism is exactly that. Because the whole idea that a new political party is a failure. Purely based on internal arguments existing. Is a freaking stupid argument every party in history has arguments as bad and often worse then this.

Some times media failing to compare criticism to the normal event. is a very valid argument against that criticism,

Edit: As for the time to form an anti fascist front,

First news articles like this Tring to make more out of an argument then actually exists are more responsible for delaying things then the arguments. Failing to recognise all political parties are constantly going thorough fights like this and using it to raise advertising while storing anger in supporters. Sure as hell ain't speeding anything up.

As for how much time we have. Nothing can be done before the next general election. So forming a strong party able to handle disagreements. Is way more important then doing so in days. At the worst building the party before May's local elections is important. As it can allow us to show the earliest support. The idea a huge hurry exists is not a valid one. Forming a party able to unite people is more important then silencing disagreements.

[–] knowone@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You're framing this like I'm here claiming Sultana is the reason for this shitshow. I didn't. She isn't 100% responsible, but is clearly very much a key part of it. I'm saying the whole thing has been done badly so far. I'm not saying she individually stole all the money, I'm saying in the name of the party she went ahead with it when it's something that should have been decided between them. And yes MOU have backed her up. Who are made up of pretty much her faction in this whole thing right? Wasn't her faction being in control of the finances part of an attempt to have the power in the party spread around? It clearly isn't working out and certain things should absolutely be agreed on as a whole, while power being allocated in a better way

A lot of what you've just said here, about Corbyn and so on, just further illustrates my point. The party is in complete disarray. Why should people be giving away their money to this, as it is now? The criticism isn't based in just there being disagreements. It's clearly far more than just disagreements and there's not a single good thing they've done in their existence. to make the bad look less bad. Yes it's early days but your point about the mainstream media being against us is true. So they should be even more vigilant and tightly coordinated so that the terrible press can be avoided as much as possible. As I've said already, all of what they're "disagreeing" on should have been discussed and finalised long ago. I'm not wanting said "disagreements" to be silenced either, I'm asking for them to be sorted out. I've made that clear. Neither am I exaggerating this. It's you who's seemingly trying to make out none of this is a big deal and is a very normal thing and we shouldn't really be bothered because... our enemies do it?

Novara aren't trying to cause things to go badly with this. You do realise they're the biggest actually left wing/far left media outlet in the UK right? And that they don't have ads or even any restricted content, all their funding comes from reader donations? I disagree with them sometimes, particularly some stuff Bastani and Walker have come out with, but they're not wrong to criticise here. They want this party to work and they're calling for unity and for opportunity, time and money not to wasted on easily avoidable, embarrassing things like this. I'm not expecting you to but if you want you can listen to their podcasts on what's happening with Your Party. You'll see it's very much the case they want this to do well

Your last paragraph I'm not sure exactly how to respond? I guess just how in any way are Your Party proving to us that they're doing well working towards building a party that can handle disagreements? The rest is confusing to me, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. A lot of what you've written as a whole seems like you aren't actually reading what I'm saying

[–] bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net 3 points 1 week ago

Except we also have 20 years of cyber-utopian leaderless experience to tell us that actually gets you nowhere.