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64
The Purpose of Difficulty | GMTK Mini (www.youtube.com)
submitted 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) by simple@piefed.social to c/games@lemmy.world
29 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Yet another video talking about silksong's difficulty, but this one is from someone who knows what theyre talking about

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[–] MimicJar@lemmy.world 27 points 14 hours ago (6 children)

It took Silksong coming out for me to identify why I wasn't a fan of Hollow Knight, and it's touched on in this video.

It's the runback.

The Dark Souls series of games have the same "problem", and it's why I don't enjoy them either.

I'm a huge fan of Celeste, Super Meat Boy, the Ori series. When I fail at these games, I'm right back in the action.

I'm not against having to learn boss patterns, I really enjoyed Cuphead because after I've failed I'm right back in the action.

And while it's an easier game by comparison, Shovel Knight was a fun game. The checkpoints were plentifully and I could increase the difficulty by destroying them.

But when I played Hollow Knight I reached a point where I was just running to the boss and dying. Then again. And again. And again. I wasn't getting better. And the time it took to get back just took too long and wasn't fun. It wasn't a rage quit. I was having fun at one point... But then the game wore me down and eventually it wasn't.

I don't think the game needs to change. Although I think adding difficultly modifiers would be a good idea. I played through Metroid Dread on normal difficulty and after beating it was having so much fun I immediately played it again on Hard difficulty. If there were a mode with more checkpoints in Hollow Knight and Silksong I might give them a shot.

[–] Wawe@lemmy.world 3 points 2 hours ago

Same, this is why I like Hyper Light Drifter. Boss fights are hard, but when die you are instantly back at the fight.

I tried playing the Titan Souls but it was really annoying game. It is a boss rush game where both you are boss die in one hit. So some times you can die instantly when boss fight starts. Issue is that there is really long load times and you have to walk back to boss (and there isn't even combat). Some times walking back to the boss takes longer than the time you fought the boss.

[–] Maestro@fedia.io 2 points 3 hours ago

For me it wasn't so much the runback, as it was fighting your spirit every time. I hated that. Especially if you died in a difficult platforming section. It only made it more difficult.

[–] BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 3 points 8 hours ago

Exactly, as an adult with a job I have very little time to game as is, the last thing I need is losing progress and then having to grind through a part of the game I've been through already many times till I reach a difficult boss battle, just auto save the game at critical check points so people can continue from where they last failed quickly

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 3 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

The Souls games really depend on which game in the series you're playing. They actually learned what was good and what wasn't. The boss runs are extremely short in most of them. Hell, a lot of Elden Ring respawn points are at the boss door. 2 is really the worst here, and mostly just the DLC bosses (fuck both runs to either smelter demon, tho).

Hollow Knight's are so, so bad. I get from what I see about Silk Song, it's more or less the same if not worse. :(

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 3 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

I think the runback is important to give you time to think. You can repeatedly attempt a difficult section of a game with a ton of checkpoints and get through it without actually learning it properly. You essentially get lucky that your hands do the right thing just enough to get by.

Imagine going to a piano recital where the person keeps messing up and repeating a difficult passage of the music, never actually being able to play the entire thing without making a mistake! That’s just not very impressive!

The goal of playing a difficult game should be to improve your skills and get better, figure out new strategies and use them in battle, not merely reach the end.

[–] BunScientist@lemmy.zip 5 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

most runbacks are nothing but time wasters, some are platforming challenges and others are avoid the enemies in the way which you've avoided plenty of times before if you are having actual problems with the boss.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

Of course. But that’s often a sign of bad game design. Difficulty should follow a smooth curve. Enormous difficulty spikes are what you expect from old games in the 80s.

But there’s also an element to mastery that gamers seem to completely neglect: downtime. I finished my math degree a couple of years ago and throughout that entire process I got stuck on math assignments thousands of times. Bashing my head against a wall trying to solve the problem right now rarely worked. I had much better success putting the pencil down and coming back to the problem later, after a period of downtime.

Since graduating I’ve been revisiting a lot of old NES games that I never finished growing up because they were too difficult. Since I’m busy with work I don’t have a ton of time to play every day. This forced downtime actually has the benefit of getting me to think and reflect on my approach, just as I would expect it to!

[–] Patches@ttrpg.network 6 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

And here I thought the goal of playing a game was to enjoy my limited free time.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 2 points 11 hours ago

It is, but different people enjoy different things. Hard games like this focus on long term goals and achieving mastery as the source of fun. Other games aim to be more relaxing.

I like all types of games. I just think it’s a bit silly when people argue “why isn’t this orange more like a banana?”

[–] Auth@lemmy.world 3 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I think the runback is important. When you instantly spawn back in the fight you're basically banging your head on the boss with zero pressure until you beat it. But with the runback in darksouls you're forced to reset after each failed attempt and fight your way back. It makes boss fights feel more like boss fights in my opinion because there is that pressure of being sent back to the bonfire if you make a mistake against this powerful enemy.

[–] MimicJar@lemmy.world 6 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I think the run back is fun for some people and I think the game should deliver the best version they can for those people. For me, it's just not fun. The reward is smaller than the frustration it causes.

[–] Auth@lemmy.world 4 points 12 hours ago

I dont think fun is the right word because I dont think the run back is fun. Its annoying and everytime I die on the runback I am annoyed. But it helps me to slow down and stops me from tilting hard and dying 50x to the first boss attack. Instead I tilt and die 50x to the first skeleton near the bonfire :p

[–] Thorry@feddit.org 14 points 17 hours ago (5 children)

I agree with a lot in this video, but disagree on one key point. You can go explore somewhere else and get upgrades and stuff.

I really liked this aspect in Elden Ring, where the bosses could get pretty hard, but you could always just go explore. Explore the lands, level up, find cool weapons and upgrades to get really OP. Then return to the boss and kick their ass. Once you've put 500 hours into it, you do challenge runs like SL1. But if you only want to put in 100 hours, you can easily beat it, no matter your skill level. The exploration feels great, the world is interesting and there is a lot to find. As compared to the previous Souls games where the game would just put a big roadblock boss in your path and good luck getting past it. Or a game like Nioh that gives you a tutorial boss, with which one struggles a bit but then beats pretty fast, only to almost right away throw in the next boss which is so hard about 70% of people quit on him (according to stats I've seen).

However, I feel like this doesn't apply to Silksong at all. You can go explore and get a whole lot of stuff, but a lot of it seems totally useless? You can get one damage upgrade, which does fuck all (haven't looked it up, but feels like 15% maybe?). The different crests are really cool, but won't help you beat bosses. There is maybe 1 full mask or 2? But as everything does 2 damage, that's only 1 extra hit. The secondary weapons are mostly useless and as the video said, you need to farm resources to be able to use them.

I consider myself pretty good at these kinds of games. Not great, but pretty good. I've played the fuck out of DS1, DS3 and Elden Ring. I've beaten Nioh 1. I've done SL1 runs and all sorts of challenges in DS1, DS3 and Elden Ring, I've done randomisers etc. I've beaten Hollow Knight 3 times, the third time I did 112%.

For Silk Song I'm about 20 hours in, I've beaten Act 1 and did pretty much everything I could find (not spoiling myself on anything). I'm part of the way into Act 2 and I don't know if I want to play anymore. Every enemy is a bullet sponge, requiring a lot of hits to get out of the way. Everything does so much damage. Simply exploring and finding shit feels like a slog. I've had many completely unfair deaths where I got booped by an enemy only to fall into a pit of spikes and die. You go from full health to death very fast. And the bosses just keep on getting more difficult. It feels like a grind instead of fun.

On the other hand, I love the way the game looks, I love the boss music (not as much a fan of the level music, too much atmospheric, too little actual music), I love how smooth it feels to play. And I love the world and want to explore it all. That's where I disagree with the video, I'm not in the rage quit phase, I'm in the this isn't fun to play phase.

Maybe I'll continue, I know I have the skills to beat the game. But if I'm not having fun, what's even the point of playing anymore?

[–] Katana314@lemmy.world 4 points 13 hours ago

I think the death run back and the option of exploring for upgrades were always at odds. When you respawn, getting things back is your first task as a form of loss avoidance. But then you’re standing in front of the boss room, maybe after jumping some spike pits, and you might as well just go in. There’s no thought to going other places at that point.

Shovel Knight used a death run to reclaim your lost treasure, and it worked out because it plays as a linear platformer, egging you on into accomplishing the daring feat you just pulled; gating little important behind upgrades.

Soulslike Tunic basically abandoned the death run back, just having you lose 20 gold (which hangs in that spot), and the game didn’t really suffer for it especially because exploration of old areas is so key to that game.

[–] catalyst@lemmy.world 8 points 16 hours ago

You can go explore and get a whole lot of stuff, but a lot of it seems totally useless?

Oh yeah I totally feel this. I’ll complete a quest or some fiddly pogo area only to see the reward and go “huh?”

Still liking the game a lot, to be fair.

[–] Phelpssan@lemmy.world 2 points 14 hours ago

The secondary weapons are mostly useless and as the video said, you need to farm resources to be able to use them.

I'd argue these are some of the few "useful" upgrades since some of these tools are really strong. But I agree they made them quite annoying to use due to the need to manage/farm resources.

[–] ryven@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

What's unfair about getting booped into spikes? That's a classic video game death!

[–] Thorry@feddit.org 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Man fuck those Ninja Gaiden birds

[–] __Lost__@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 11 hours ago

And those damn Medusa heads!

[–] simple@piefed.social -2 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

You can get one damage upgrade, which does fuck all

The first damage upgrade increases your damage by 80%, the second increases by 44%, the third increases by 24%.

The different crests are really cool, but won't help you beat bosses.

Wanderer's and architect will definitely help you beat bosses.

There is maybe 1 full mask or 2?

You can get 3-4 masks in act 2 I think

Like many complaints it sounds like you are ranting that the game is hard to be honest. Especially in act 2, the game really opens up with many different paths to take. Take a break and stop trying to brute force the game.

[–] Thorry@feddit.org 7 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

You misunderstand. I was limiting what I said to act 1, just like the video did. The things you are talking about are in act 2. I'm glad to see it gets better in act 2, however I'm not as far into that yet. Most people running into these issues will quit before beating act 1 most likely, so it's kind of a moot point.

I simply can't believe those damage numbers. I was talking about the nail upgrade in the town. Is there some other upgrade I'm not aware of? All the low level enemies seem to take the same number of hits. In Hollow Knight the upgrades to the nail were very noticeable. The nail upgrade in Silksong felt like it did nothing at all. Bosses might have gone from 16 hits to 12 hits per phase, which is still a whole lot of hits. Especially as windows for damage are brief and far in between and bosses have 4 phases typically.

Edit: checked the damage output and whilst sources provide conflicting information, it does appear the first upgrade is 80% as stated. However it does not decrease the number of hits enemies take, due to a poor lineup in health and damage. So only a few enemies actually take less hits with the nail upgrade, making the upgrade feel pointless. For bosses the difference is obviously huge. But with perhaps the exception of a single boss, usually you fight the boss with the damage you've got. Very few people would be counting the hits (although I did at times to see if I was progressing). So there is little frame of reference in this case.

[–] simple@piefed.social 0 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (2 children)

You misunderstand. I was limiting what I said to act 1

Fair. Act 1 is fairly tough but one can still go through the mist to skip last judge at least which is where most struggle.

The damage values are real and I'm also talking about the town upgrade, you can see the wiki to confirm ( https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Needle )

It goes from 5 dmg --> 9 dmg --> 13 dmg. It felt noticeable when I got it, enemies that took 5 hits take 3.

FYI your crest matters a lot when it comes to damage output. Reaper as an example has a long range but a slow attack speed which might make fights drag on.

[–] Phelpssan@lemmy.world 2 points 14 hours ago

Fair. Act 1 is fairly tough but one can still go through the mist to skip last judge at least which is where most struggle.

Though that's quite well hidden and very few people will find that without some Google help. I'd also argue that it's probably harder to go through Sinner's Road and Mist than fighting Last Judge, though YMMV.

It goes from 5 dmg --> 9 dmg --> 13 dmg.

That didn't match my experience, I did a lot of tests after getting the first upgrade and it definitely didn't cut down the hits by that much.

So I was looking into that and according to tests made by a redditor there's some kind of "damage reduction" stat in place that negates some of that buff. Their page is a work-in-progress but they're documenting the exact damage and # of hits to kill each enemy with each upgrade.

https://raiderking.com/hollow-knight-silksong-all-enemy-health-values-skill-and-needle-upgrade-damage-values/

[–] Thorry@feddit.org 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

I haven't done a whole lot with the crests as I found the starter crest to be very versatile and I got used to the moveset. I have played around with the Beast crest which is really fun, allowing you to just go ham on enemies. However I found against bosses the Beast crest doesn't work at all, as the damage taken is too large for the lifesteal to overcome. Unless you are dodging and weaving, which defeats the purpose of the Beast crest a bit.

The patches that have been release will probably help a lot of people with the bosses as, if I understood correctly, they've decreased the contact damage. This will help a lot with the feeling if boss fights being unfair due to hits taken are often compounded by subsequent contact damage. On many occasions I've gone from 4 health, doing OK to dead in less than one sec. This can feel very unfair. Especially after going through a long and annoying run back and then 2 easy phases, just to get to the hard part and die right away.

It feels like if one were to simply be able to practice the hard part, bosses would be defeated much faster. The runbacks (which often include shortcuts it must be said) combined with long easier phases contribute to a feeling of unfair difficulty. It also makes things take up more time than needed, leaving people to feel like the game is wasting their time. Or difficulty for the sake of being difficult. As the video stated, difficulty is a tool that most be wielded carefully.

When doing for example a SL1 run in a Souls game, the player must play at a high level without many or even any mistakes. Boss fights will take longer and the stakes go up. The difference is, one chooses to do these challenges. Often only after already mastering a game. For many people Silksong feels like being thrown into the deep end, without being able to properly swim.

[–] tmyakal 2 points 59 minutes ago

Silksong feels like being thrown into the deep end

I think it feels less like a standalone game and more like high-end Hollow Knight DLC. The gameplay expects that you've already completely beaten and mastered the hardest parts of Hollow Knight, and expects you to pick up from there.

Maybe that would be fine if I'd been grinding the Godhome continuously for the past seven years. But I think most people haven't been doing that.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 5 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

Very good video that lines up with a lot of my own thoughts (yay).

That said? I think I fundamentally disagree with the idea that everyone should be able to beat every game for narrative reasons. My preference is for something similar to what Nine Sols did (AMAZING boss fights. Dogshit metroidvania and traversal), but I don't fundamentally believe that everyone needs to be able to experience every game. Like, you can make an "easy mode" for DCS but... the point of that game is the fidelity and turning all of that off just feels "wrong"? At the end of the day, it is up to the devs and what they want people to consider "accomplishment" to be.

And we live in the internet age. I remember beating Arkham Knight, having fun, and then deciding there was zero chance I would ever want to get all the riddler keys or fight deathstroke a dozen times and just went to youtube.

But I 100% agree with the back half of the video. The game is very much designed to just take a break and wander off when you get frustrated. Which is where I DO wish there were more QOL features to make it clear what areas might still have a mask (preferably one you can reach) rather than needing to find a guide or try to guess. Especially when you don't even get map markers for a decent chunk early on.

[–] moody@lemmings.world 1 points 14 hours ago

You can get map markers very early into the game. Basically from the first time you meet the mapmaker some 30 minutes into the game.

[–] ryven@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 15 hours ago

There is a section in this video where he talks about game elements he thinks are "bullshit" and I don't know if I agree about any of them. But I will also admit that playing NetHack at an early age, where

You fall into a spiked pit! The spikes were poisoned! The poison was deadly! You have died. Do you want your possessions identified?

was a completely normal and expected way to lose a run, may have warped my sense of what counts as a fair game mechanic. ^_^;;