Just reverting to type.
this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2025
282 points (99.3% liked)
Europe
547 readers
431 users here now
Europe community on dbzer0. Intended to be a place to discuss European news, politics, or just general topics from a European perspective. Since this is on dbzer0 expect the community to lean more leftist-anarchist but a wide range of views are accepted here (within reason).
Rules:
1. No Bigotry or Hate Speech
Any forms of Homophobia, Transphobia, Queerphobia, Racism, or Ableism will be met with swift and harsh action and will not be tolerated here whatsoever. Bigots will be banned immediately on-sight. This includes apologia of it.
Trying to be politely or intellectually bigoted i.e. "Just asking questions" won't be tolerated.
2. No Zionism
Any forms of Zionism or Zionist rhetoric will not be tolerated here, this includes Zionist apologia, accusations of antisemitism towards anti-Zionists, or blatant denial or downplaying of the genocide towards Palestinians. Any attempt to uphold or prop up the IHRA definition of antisemitism, will be treated as Zionism.
Anyone engaging in Pro-Zionist sentiment or apologia will be actioned in accordance with its severity.
Note: Trying to find loopholes or whataboutery to see what is or isn't genocide denial or Zionism will be treated as a violation of this rule. Don't test us.
3. Stay Civil
Please maintain civil discourse in the community. Do not engage in arguments with others, name-calling, or insults. Note that calling out bigotry or Zionism is not considered an insult. In heated arguments users are encouraged to or even required to disengage failure to do so will result in mod action.
4. No Misinformation
Spreading of misinformation intentionally in this community is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Spreading misinformation hurts the credibility of the community and can mislead people sometimes in dangerous ways. Users who intentionally post misinformation as articles, comment answers, or in attempt to win arguments will be actioned swiftly.
Note: This includes Russian and Chinese propaganda. Users with a history of such posting will be banned on sight.
5. No AI Content
Please do not post articles or content primarily created using generative AI. Generative AI content may contain misinformation or be lower quality and thus is discouraged. Posts and comments featuring it will be removed. However this community does not allow or tolerate Anti-AI trolling or hostility and users who engage in such behavior will be actioned for it, additionally Anti-AI trolling violates Rule 3 and often Rule 4 so it is generally unacceptable already.
Note: Rules 1 & 2 may be subject to preemptive mod action due to their severity, and they apply to a user's entire post history. Not just this community.
founded 4 months ago
MODERATORS
Woulda been more believable if you made it black and white
SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI SI
This is what happens when a country that was part of the axis and commited many atrocities gets no consequences for it. Germany was split up, the eastern axis were screwed by becoming part of the soviet block, japan got demilitarised and controlled by the US.
BUT Italy just got to get off almost scoff free.
Lmao, you should search how many Japanese was punished by their crimes in Nanking massacre, the Japanese fascists are still in power
USA did absolutely nothing about that
"Germany was split up" indeed.
The western side had no consequences for it, on the contrary, they rehabilitated the nazis and kept them in positions of power.
On the Soviet side they got their deserved reward. What you call 'screwed'?
Japan still had a lot of fascists and extreme-right to this day, even leading the country.
By the eastern axis I meant Hungary Romania and Bulgaria. Japan got nuked but had it alright after since it was under the US.
They were booming and becoming a world power, the reason why the US wanted war with them.
I wouldn't call getting nuked, having to rebuild their infrastructure and economy from zero , and now as a vasal state to the US "had it alright" either.
Alright was maybe an overstatement. Definitely way better than having to be under the USSR umbrella.
no
Not really. The far right is winning across the West right now. Countries which were not facists like the US, UK and France have very strong far right movements as well as countries which got occupied like Germany, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, which had fascists governments.
Fascisim is a problem of capitalism collapsing. Capitalism naturally moves money from the poor to the rich. So governments need to fight that. So low growth should naturally lead to the left gaining ground, as they want to do exactly that. However the capitalist fight it and they need to find an alternative enemy, hence fascism.
Capitalism naturally moves money from the poor to the rich. So governments need to fight that. So low growth should naturally lead to the left gaining ground, as they want to do exactly that. However the capitalist fight it and they need to find an alternative enemy, hence fascism.
that's part of the problem but not everything.
You're underestimating the number of people who look at the mainstream culture from 2000-2020 and say "hey, they're trying to take our way of life away, trying to replace us with immigrants, trying to declare our way of life criminal and illegal". That causes a huge backlash.
But yeah, economic questions are also very important. Naturally, the left should become pretty strong around now by campaigning on taxing the rich and implementing a universal basic income. It's very sad and unfortunate that the left don't get their shit together and effectively campaign on these issues.
So low growth should naturally lead to the left gaining ground
Wrong, the extreme-right trick of blaming a scapegoat for all their problems, "the jews" pre-WW2 and "immigrants" now works.
An easy target, the rich and industrial forces pulling the strings behind the curtain are much less visible.
I watched The Fall of Civilizations podcast a few months ago on the Mongols and Genghis Kahn.
Genghis Kahn, realized, once he united the the Mongol people, he wouldn't be able to hold them united without an enemy. He realized he needed an enemy and began the conquest.
I just wish for once the "enemy" could be an abstract, like hunger and poverty instead of our fellow man. Just once.
I just wish for once the “enemy” could be an abstract, like hunger and poverty instead of our fellow man. Just once.
(outer) "space" is considered the final frontier
Yes but support for fascism and similar ideas has been stronger in Italy for much longer.
And yet AfD is almost leading in the polls Germany, AUR is leading by far in Romania, Hungary has Orban and Slovakia has Fico. They never learn. Or rather they always forget.
Yes but these have risen in recent years and were on the fringes before. Italy is a different story.
US controlled Italy as well. In Italy there was essentially a civil war, which is how fascism got defeated, with the resistance cooperating with the Allies, and a government and constitution being established as a result.
The problem with Italy is not about punishment, is cultural. Italy never collectively reflected and moved on from the fascist past. Maybe there is some good discussion about the relationship between this and being a catholic country.
I was reading, lightly reading, some book I found on the archive from 1971 that was attempting to discuss Italy just post the black plague. It read they loved fudalism/fascism in those years.
These problems are ancient, just with new ways of implementation. Not claiming to know a lot about it
I know what happened with the civil war and that.
I still believe fascism has not been moved past precisely because rhey suffered no consequences for being fascist.
It could be argued that the same is true of the American civil war.
Half the country supported fascism, either directly or through inaction, what do you do...? Demilitarization would be of no help here, so what are the options? It is a cultural process that needs to cause a collective reflection to move on. What "punishment" would have worked in your opinion?
Something like germany and austria. Lose any territories with significant amount of other nationalities like the east of germany going to Poland.
They could have lost south Tyrol and they should have lost Trieste.
I am not sure if you include that in "split up" but Germany lost a lot of (pre-war) territory.
I do. Italy lost barely any territory. Not counting colonies in this.
Lot of German top Nazis got promoted to high ranking positions in West-Germany too.
Nuremberg was a sham trial.
I've keep seeing folks in here say the evil weren't held accountable before, and so this must be why it repeats.
I think even if every soul who perpetrated this evil, was uh, held accountable, I wonder, if these problems would still arise again, I don't think it would have made a difference, I think it will repeat. Power over others is a hell of a drug
benitos grandaughter works in the far right group in italy.
I could've sworn she was in Lega. She's in Forza Italia, center-right, an EPP member in the EU Parliament
I don't know much about Italy, but the Years of Lead and the collapse of the Communist Party there (at least, in name) probably contributed to a weakened left and a strengthened right, but IDK. I just read some stuff about it, maybe I'm wrong.
This is from January.
Fuck sake. I've been planning to retire to Italy for over 20 years now. Nice little place near the sea with an olive tree. Walking distance to the town to have the banter with the lads over some coffee and wine.
Fucking cunting Nazis ruining everything.
They're everywhere :(
WHY!?! I feel like that rick and morty episode
There are a few idiots everywhere. Italy is a great country with great people, so there is no reason why you wouldn't retire there.
Can't be that few, they're ruling the country.
I honestly believe that we are seeing the loud and public actions of very, very few people. They want us to believe they have a majority. But they do not. Even though many people are illinformed and some knowingly cling to maladjusted opinions of the world - they don't and won't support Nazis.
This stuff has been happening all the time over decades. It's a few hundreds idiots who put up clown shows. It's nothing new, really.
Italians when two neo-fascist are killed in the 70s........ Nazi salutes every year for decades.
Italians when neo-fascist kill 17 innocent people in the 70s...... Silence.
Always crazy how much projection the right can dredge up when it comes to political violence.
Mussolini was an awful leader and Hitler would have killed or enslaved the entirety of Italy in time. Fascism was objectively a low point. Italians who are down on their luck are turning to historically negative “empowerment” and endangering themselves with it. What a rat fuck of a situation.
Looks like we're going to have to stomp out some fascists again. Twice in one century.
One thing I know about Italians is that .... they are always a proud people who are always about themselves
It's not hard to sway the population as long as you promote the idea of nationalism, racism and identity - Italy for Italians and no one else.
It's the same format they have for America ... except it's harder to do in America because they always have to admit to a historic multicultural background.
It's often easier in Italy which has a very long, historic, proud and well documented monocultural past. (Yes, yes, I know .... Italy also has a multicultural past, but to most modern Italians, most average Italians like to believe that they have a monocultural past)
Monocultural past? Italy is not a single country even today. People 200km apart can't understand each other if they would speak their local language. People hate each other even within the same region (e.g., Pisa vs Livorno). There is quite a lot of hate and discrimination even between South and North, between cities (Naples/Milan/Rome), especially due to internal migrations (many people go from South to Rome to study, or north to work).
One of the major parties (today) rebranded as a nationalist party just recently, but is still called "north league" and was a secessionist party until 10 years ago or so (probably still is to some extent).
Everyone in Italy is absolutely aware of local culture and differences, and Italians have a very vague idea of what Italy is as a country. The national identity is really weird, and often people feel more part of their local heritage than Italian (e.g., Sicilian or roman).
Also dunking on Italy is basically a national sport, almost everyone in Italy is convinced that abroad "things work, not like here". However, people get protective when an outgroup criticizes Italy, that's when you get a "nationalist" perspective. This is quite common for many groups though.
Yuuuup. I'm from Sardinia, and when i hear another guy from my region i almost immediately know if he's from Cagliari, Sassari, or Nuoro, just from the accent. Also the first two cities have quite a beef between them.
I think you're wrong on this one.
Not being a settler colony doesn't automatically mean you're monocultural.
In my experience, Italians are acutely and constantly aware of their regional differences and their regional language. They often switch between local language and standard Italian in their day to day life. Even more so than Germans.
Of course, there are those who believe they're monocultural. But that's the same in the US, you have people who say to every non-white person:"go home to your own country."
You are First Nation, so you're aware of the peoples that have been there. But the average American (Canadians probably less so) thinks about Native Americans zero times in a year. (This is a hypothesis)
I would say the centuries of fragmentation of the Italian peninsula actually bolstered the nationalist spirit more than in countries with a long history as a unified nation (England, France, Spain…) and much literature taught at school treats this topic.
But yeah history doesn’t teach shit, it looks like…
load more comments
(3 replies)
view more: next ›