this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2025
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[–] Rusty@lemmy.ca 110 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I like the last words of chief Hatuey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatuey) before the Christians burned him alive:

[Hatuey], thinking a little, asked the religious man if Spaniards went to heaven. The religious man answered yes... The chief then said without further thought that he did not want to go there but to hell so as not to be where they were and where he would not see such cruel people. This is the name and honour that God and our faith have earned.

[–] ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online 14 points 2 days ago

That burns hotter than the fires of hell!

[–] Krauerking@lemy.lol 177 points 2 days ago (4 children)

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents. Without a prison, there can be no delinquents. We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves. When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift. We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property. We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth. We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another. We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society. "

  • John Fire Lame Deer
[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 41 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

A lot of indigineous thinking captured in one passage, particularly restorative justice.

I was raised Christian but reading texts on Indigineous thought has been what has helped me realize what makes a good person.

Too much in Abrahamic religions is about obedience and blind submission to authority which is why I often feel drawn to eastern religious thought also. Both Eastern religious thought and the indigineous worldview are more holistic in my view.

I find Abrahamic religious teachings to be very exclusionary (hey if you beleive what we believe we'll let you into heaven) Almost like a country club of sorts. Eastern and Indigineous philosophy (with the exception of the caste system warping into a rigid institutionalized social hierarchy due in part to Western influence) seem to be much more inclusionary.

[–] Prathas@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

It's spelled "indigenous," FYI. The accent is on "`di-" and you don't make an "ee" sound after the "n"; it just goes straight to "nus."

I find Abrahamic religious teachings to be very exclusionary (hey if you beleive what we beleive we’ll let you into heaven) Almost like a country club of sorts.

So true. Thinking about it, Christian missionaries' main job is less to sell Jesus, but more to sell FOMO.

Like a timeshare salesperson, they're not gonna talk much about the maintenance fees required (such as treating each other the way Jesus said to.) They're also not gonna talk about how so many of the other share-owners are insufferable to be around and regularly break the agreed-upon rules. Oh, but they will hype up how, for the low, low price of asking Jesus for forgiveness and getting baptized, you, too, could reserve yourself an eternal home in Paradise!

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[–] GandalftheBlack@feddit.org 123 points 2 days ago (19 children)

Problem is, the Bible doesn't present one cohesive set of positive moral principles. It's a collection of books written over hundreds of years by many authors with their own beliefs, biases and contexts, so it's not possible to derive one set of "Christian values" from it. This means people will cherry pick bits that align with their pre-existing beliefs and dismiss or downplay whatever is inconvenient or contradicts them, and there are plenty of less than savoury parts to cherry pick from.

[–] ieGod@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] GandalftheBlack@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago

In the sense that the supernatural claims and many historical accounts made by biblical authors have no basis in reality, of course you're right. That doesn't mean there's no value in the academic study of the Bible. If you have no interest you can dismiss the whole lot as nonsense, but there's a lot of insight (and by insight I'm not talking about capital T Truth about the nature of reality) about the development of thought in Europe and the Near East to be gleaned from the Bible.

[–] Rothe@piefed.social 64 points 2 days ago (2 children)

and there are plenty of less than savoury parts to cherry pick from.

There is literal god approven genocide for example.

[–] Gloomy@mander.xyz 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

And slavery. Don't forget the slavery.

[–] scathliath@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 2 days ago

Or the blood sacrifice and "when is divination acceptable" angles.

[–] miss_demeanour@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 2 days ago

God shouuld have realized this when He chose His Favourite People.

[–] Wildmimic@piefed.social 29 points 2 days ago (4 children)

If i remember correctly (it's been a while), then the Bible becomes a lot more coherent if you throw out the old testament, and keep to the new testament only - which actually is what christians should do, because the sacrifice of Jesus is a new covenant which supercedes the old one with Moses.

If you keep to the NT, then there isn't so much ambiguity - evangelicals who cite from the OT are even more backwards than catholicism itself is.

[–] GandalftheBlack@feddit.org 34 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Not exactly. In fact, this is a gross oversimplification. The New Testament contradicts itself and plenty of mainstream Christian beliefs. Different NT authors have drastically different views of OT law, ranging from the view that the OT law should still be upheld (Matt 5:17 where Jesus says “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill."), to completely rejecting the old covenant (Hebrews 8:13 "In speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear."), and a range of nuanced views in-between. You can torture the text to reconcile to make it fit a particular view, but that's not an honest way of reading a text.

Also, wholesale rejecting the OT on the basis that the new covenant supercedes the old is incredibly problematic. I can understand saying that in the case of a contradiction between OT and NT you would go with the latter (although even that is an issue), but if you reject the OT, you're missing out on essential developments in Israelite and Jewish history, thought and literature which is essential to understand the NT. It's bad enough as it is that the tradition of mystical literature which so heavily influenced post-exilic Jewish and early Christian thought is overlooked. The last thing people who want to understand the NT need to do is throw out the OT.

[–] Gloomy@mander.xyz 16 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If i remember correctly (it's been a while), then the Bible becomes a lot more coherent if you throw out the old testament, and keep to the new testament only

You mean the one that starts with four tellings of the same story, that contradict each other heavily ?

[–] GandalftheBlack@feddit.org 16 points 2 days ago

Including a fabricated census of the entire Roman Empire which for some reason required men to return to their birth towns and left no historical or archaeological record

[–] AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world 18 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The sermon on the Mount and specifically Matthew 5:18 I think or something like that explicitly says that nothing from the law has been removed or invalidated by Jesus.

This is a common sentiment in American Christianity but it doesn't really seem to be backed up by the text.

[–] RecursiveParadox@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I think most modern exegesis of that verse rather tightly constrains it to rabbinical law, bearing in mind that the Sadducees and those upstart Pharisees (of which JC was one) were battling out questions of the law at the time JC was doing his thing.

So just saying I think you're right. Otherwise, no football on Sunday for many multiple reasons!

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 days ago

I think most modern exegesis of that verse rather tightly constrains it to rabbinical law

Oh. Well how convenient for them.

[–] Geodad@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Jesus himself says that he didn't come to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them.

The whole book is worthless.

[–] frostedtrailblazer@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Jesus came to fulfill the 10 Commandments and spread the word of God being a loving God; not the ritualistic laws of the early-Israelites.

I’d say the book has meaning, but the lens in which one applies when reading it matters. There’s the text as it’s written, there’s the perspectives of the respective authors, and then there is your own lens being three main ways of reading it.

I think the biggest issue is people that are Christians in name only that pick up a Bible and call themselves Christians without even knowing the teachings of Jesus. The types that think what you do on Earth doesn’t matter so long as you believe, so they go on to do near the exact opposite of Jesus. A short comic about this: Supply Side Jesus

[–] Geodad@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

If that god was really loving, then hell wouldn't be a punishment for rejection.

I'm not convinced that any gods are real, but I'm convinced that the Bible god absolutely isn't.

[–] frostedtrailblazer@lemmy.zip 1 points 9 hours ago

Hell doesn’t exist in the Bible, it’s something later Christians thought up as a moral basis to keep people following the rules and to show up to their specific church services. I mean the church was even selling indulgences for a long while there which was a way of buying yourself a space in heaven, which goes against what Jesus talked about.

[–] Prathas@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago

The mature-faith circles I hear say that it's a state of mind that is the only place for one who disagrees with God to go, because God fills up that much space otherwise and it wouldn't be fair for them to experience God when they have clearly stated that they don't want to.

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[–] Tja@programming.dev 64 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Didn't Gandhi say something similar?

"I like your christ but not your Christians, they have so little in common with christ" (or something similar)

[–] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 18 points 2 days ago (8 children)

I believe this is one of those common misquotes.

It was actually Buddha who said that

[–] orbitz@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 day ago

Misquote or not, it's a worthwhile one. I'm not religious in the least, but always thought the ideal of love your neighbor was a pretty good one. Even if they make noise after late hours and annoy you for reasons not just cause they are from a different culture.

Also yes I'm sure there are many quotes in the Bible that say otherwise but I think the idea of Christianity and new testament sort of surpassed many of those quotes. Not that many consider that, and I'm sure there's new testament quotes that go against it but I'll be honest I only was taught it in elementary and a bit middle school.

We need to get along if we have so many people around, is the idea I imagine. Not that they could imagine the cities of today.

Also Buddha's teachings are quite nice too. They have their issues, don't let their issues cause you distress but be helpful if you're able to. Least that's what I took of his teachings, also a good philosophy, least I think so. I did listen to a lot of Buddhist sermons and perhaps took some of them wrong but he appeared to be more live and let live, help others if they would like it, if not then no worries. If only all religions were similar to that.

[–] nyctre@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I believe Buddha was merely quoting Hastur.

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[–] blurb@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 days ago (5 children)
[–] wieson@feddit.org 26 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'order by book_id,ref_chapter,ref_verse' at line 1--select * from lists where cat_id=3 and pub_id= order by book_id,ref_chapter,ref_verse

I get why people say the Bible is hard to understand and the teaching hard to follow

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[–] P1k1e@lemmy.world 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)
[–] Zacryon@feddit.org 14 points 2 days ago

Your comment was right below that one, what a coincendiary.

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[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The american natives of the great lakes region were considered some of the sharpest orators the missionaries have ever witnessed. A number of them also didn't have rigid hierarchies and believed in the importance of individual freedom. The Dawn of Everything speaks a lot about some of their civic/social beliefs.

Speaking of which, can anyone point me to resources on those early missionaries' records on the natives?

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