this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2025
15 points (66.7% liked)

Videos

16513 readers
415 users here now

For sharing interesting videos from around the Web!

Rules

  1. Videos only
  2. Follow the global Mastodon.World rules and the Lemmy.World TOS while posting and commenting.
  3. Don't be a jerk
  4. No advertising
  5. No political videos, post those to !politicalvideos@lemmy.world instead.
  6. Avoid clickbait titles. (Tip: Use dearrow)
  7. Link directly to the video source and not for example an embedded video in an article or tracked sharing link.
  8. Duplicate posts may be removed

Note: bans may apply to both !videos@lemmy.world and !politicalvideos@lemmy.world

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 20 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] just_another_person@lemmy.world 27 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This is much older than the posted date, so the terrain was way different, and the ecosystem was way different.

Caveat: I worked on the packaging projects he is discussing.

  1. His whole thing was wanting to package things much more like MacOS at the time. It was pretty foolproof from a user's perspective, but terrible for developers.

  2. AppImage at the time was essentially the same thing as he was aiming for, but it has some security drawbacks. He hated them. He wanted to be them.

  3. Post this talk, Flatpak came out, which is an improvement on the AppImage premise, but has layers, so uses less disk...in theory. He hated it.

  4. Once the rise of containers came along, and everyone was (still is) generally using them wrong, he had a fucking meltdown and tried to revive another packaging project which he quickly gave up on.

I mention all of this to say: don't just listen to what he's saying and take it at face value. Sure, he's a legend, but he's just a developer. He wants the unattainable technical solution just like every other developer. There is no ONE right answer here, and things now are way better than when this was recorded maybe 10 years ago. WAY better.

[–] kalkulat@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I just for the hell of it installed and tried the Flatpak version of an MVP player I use daily. The daily started playing a stream in 2 or 3 seconds. After starting the same stream on the Flatpak, it was still downloading after a minute had gone by. Not just FAT but SLOOOOOOw.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

terrible for developers

He brought up specific things from the POV of working on subsurface where Linux made things a lot more difficult for them than every "consumer" operating system.

I worked on the packaging projects he is discussing.

Which packaging projects? I don't even remember him talking about particular projects (aside from Debian itself), just about the general landscape of the problem and the attitudes of distro makers that have created it.

AppImage at the time was essentially the same thing as he was aiming for, but it has some security drawbacks. He hated them. He wanted to be them.

Post this talk, Flatpak came out, which is an improvement on the AppImage premise, but has layers, so uses less disk...in theory. He hated it.

I notice neither of these has made all that much of an impact. I have never in my life used either one of them or been encouraged to by anyone else, it has always been package management, or Docker, or pick your binary tarball, or curl | sudo sh and cross fingers.

He wants the unattainable technical solution just like every other developer.

He attained two totally separate attainable technical solutions which solved massive problems in the tech ecosystem and shape the landscape of computing today (one-and-a-half, GNU deserves quite a bit of credit.) I happen to agree mostly with his judgement on this particular problem, so it's easier for me to see it that way, but I definitely would not dismiss out-of-hand his judgement on the right way to approach significant problems.

[–] fluckx@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Flatpaks are more common on the atomic distros I guess?

You also didn't mention Ubuntu snaps. Which is the greatest horror of them all. I wondered why people kept using firefox since it was so goddamn slow. But it turned out to be a snap which just needed 6+ seconds of initial startup time ( every time there was no active browser ). Switching to a .deb installation made Firefox the snappy ( hah! ) program I expected it to be.

I will never install Ubuntu again unless they completely ditch snaps.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 2 points 17 hours ago

Yeah. It feels like the issue is that really solving it is hard work (you can feel, with the proliferation of Linux/Windows runtimes that get downloaded behind the scenes for Steam, how much effort they're continuously putting into releasing new runtimes that make slight adjustments for particular issues), and organizations like Ubuntu are always tempted into these kind of "we'll just set up a simple system that means we don't have to work on it because it'll be solved" approaches.

Honestly I think Linus is being a little over simplistic about how easy it would be to create ABI compatibility in userland. In the kernel it's realistic, but in userland it would be hopeless. But he's not wrong that the current situation, however it arrived, is pretty crappy from a POV of wanting to ship something to people outside of the distro's package management, and IMO none of the solutions that have come along since then are effective at solving the problem.

[–] just_another_person@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 2 points 17 hours ago

When did he discuss OnePackage or any other packaging project?

[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Well fuck me for enjoying the hell out of desktop linux.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 13 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I do too, clearly as does Linus. He's just talking about some of the issues that prevent it from getting adopted by the normies.

[–] LoreSoong@startrek.website 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This was the most confusing thing to me when getting started with linux It was baffling to me that jumping from different distros would completely change how i had to install packages or push me to use flatpak. I genuinely could not wrap my head around how there were no universally accepted binaries between distros. And hes talking about this years ago before recent mass adoption...

I landed on an arch based distro because it seems like they have the most universal solution after jumping around. Curious to know, what distro In your opinion the closest to "getting it right"? Open to all not just @PhilipTheBucket

[–] fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 day ago (2 children)

IMO Linux’s biggest problem is choices. Normal people don’t really want choices, they just want the one, and it needs to work. The second you tell them there’s 17 different options, and each one has 9 sub options, and each sub option has 4 more sub sub options they just tune out. Got a problem? Google “Linux fix XYZ” and there’s 300 different fixes and maybe one of them works. Or maybe it doesn’t.

With windows there’s 1 or 2 windows. You get what Microsoft thinks is best. Don’t like it? Maybe someone’s made a tweak. But odds are too bad, suck it up. And then they move on with their life.

[–] LoreSoong@startrek.website 1 points 13 hours ago

I want to say you're wrong but damn not 20 mins before reading this did I just type into my search engine ["issue x" Arch wayland gnome nvidia grub] to help narrow down my query to my specific system. I will say that once I do this though Im usually met with pretty much exactly what Im looking for or at least a small group of people working toward a solution. It takes getting used to but Im overall much happier with my experience on Linux because like you said its not a 5050 whether i can fix the problem or not, I CAN but now its all about how much time im willing to invest or the community has already invested. With more people moving everyday I can watch my experience get better and better as the community improves everything.

[–] psx_crab@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Well you're right on, because that's exactly the reason i haven't tried linux yet, i have very little time for entertainment and i need to allocate my time to the thing i felt needed at the moment, between "trying to research and install linux and try out a few and troubleshoot when stuff came out" and "play game", i always pick the latter.

[–] LoreSoong@startrek.website 1 points 12 hours ago

by all means wait, I recommend trying it but eventually bazzite, steamos, nixos or fedora will take so much market share that your experience will be indistinguishable from windows or simply better.

Also I agree we all have less time with the state of the world right now but when you solve or even just point out a problem on windows or linux you're making the experience better for other users. If you want to look at yourself like an upaid beta tester thats fine but id rather be working towards improving the software that is free and open source even if its alot less convenient or simple.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Steam I think is probably the closest thing to "right" for the problem he was describing. You pick your app, it downloads and then it works. There's some behind-the-scenes nonsense involved, but it is in actuality hidden from the end-user, in a way that it is not in any of the "we fixed the Linux desktop!" solutions I have seen that are in actuality just another instance of XKCD 927. I was actually really pleased that he brought up Valve since that was the example that came to mind when he was laying out the problem.

I think it is okay if Linux is bad on "the desktop," honestly. The world needs tractors and consumer-grade cars. They both have use cases. If what you need is a tractor, and you're comfortable with the fact that it's not going to work like a car, then a tractor will do things that are totally impossible with a Hyundai Elantra. That doesn't mean we need to make tractors just as user-friendly as cars are, so that people can have one vehicle that does both. It is okay for some things to have a learning curve. But I think the example of the difficulties they had with subsurface are really significant things, it's not just a question of "oh yeah it works different," there are things that are just worse.

I think something like Arch or NixOS is probably the closest to "right" at this point. There is still a learning curve, so maybe not for everyone, but it's manageable and things aren't set up in gratuitously difficult ways. Maybe Bazzite, based on what I've heard, but I have not tried it so IDK.

[–] LoreSoong@startrek.website 2 points 12 hours ago

The world needs tractors and consumer-grade cars. They both have use cases. If what you need is a tractor, and you’re comfortable with the fact that it’s not going to work like a car, then a tractor will do things that are totally impossible with a Hyundai Elantra.

have not considered this perspective, and rolling with the metaphor Linux users are essentially rolling down main street with unsightly tractors telling car people how much better it is owning a tractor. when in reality we should be more honest a tractor is simply not for everyone. that being said I agree Arch fedora and nixos were the most user friendly tractors ive used, and similarly have not tried Bazzite, Steamos or chromeos but im hoping they become the "pickup trucks" of the PC world

[–] Creat@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 day ago

This video is over a decade old at this point. It's even in 4:3 for God's sake. I mean his argument isn't wrong, but with flatpacks and other formats like it existing the relevance changed quite a bit.

We just needed valve to step up (I think he mentioned it in that talk, been a while since I saw it), and for MS to just make Windows shitty enough to at least gain momentum.

For what is worth, as a user I haven't had that experience that it's hard to find apps at all. Quite the opposite. Almost all apps I wanted to use were just in my package manager. I think I have 1 flatpack installed, not even sure...

[–] Zier@fedia.io 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No matter what, Linux is still better than Apple or Microsoft.

[–] CallMeAnAI@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago

Not for most people, no.