this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2025
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[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago

But then people might get stuff without working for it! The horror!

[–] AntiBullyRanger@ani.social 16 points 1 day ago

COVID taught me Americans enjoy grifting, soo

[–] Gammelfisch@lemmy.world 5 points 20 hours ago

The Americans could learn from the French in regard to labor laws what happens when the government and corporations try to fuck them over. General Strike.

[–] underscores@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 day ago
[–] janja@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (11 children)

Does anyone really believe the ‘we don’t even need to be working really at all’ part?

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 12 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin was written in 1892 and argued then that we labour far more than is actually necessary. Lots of work is work for the sake of work, not necessarily for the necessity of life and society.

Think now on how much technological improvement there has been since then. The industrial revolution continued, flight, computers and automation, even the factory line system didn't take off until Ford in the early 1900s.

We have so many machines, computers, and processes that never existed a hundred years ago.

The point isn't that we have no need for work, the point is we don't need to work anywhere near as much as we do.

A modern book that argues something similar is Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conquest_of_Bread

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullshit-jobs

[–] blarghly@lemmy.world -3 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

From the wiki article you cited:

Two studies found that Graeber's claims are not supported by data: while he claims that 50% of jobs are useless, less than 20% of workers feel that way, and those who feel their jobs are useless do not correlate with whether their job is useless. (Garbage collectors, janitors, and other essential workers more often felt like their jobs were useless than people in jobs classified by Graeber as useless.) The studies found that toxic work culture and bad management were better explanations of the reasons for those feelings (as described in Marx's theory of alienation). The studies did find that the belief that one's work is useless led to lower personal wellbeing.

The reality is, almost no jobs are actually bullshit. After all, whether you are a giant corporation or a homeowner paying for a plumber to fix their toilet, no one wants to pay someone money to do nothing useful. Of course, there is slack in the system and sometimes you'll end up in a sort of sisyphean job. But most jobs exist because someone, somewhere needs or wants something done. And most of the needs and wants of the world, ultimately, come from normal people.

Of course, it is easy to make the argument that what people want is wrong. They could live in smaller houses, ride bikes instead of cars, not eat meat, and stop buying fancy watches.They could repair things instead if throwing them out, learn to be happy living in their neighborhoods rather than travelling around the world, and have fun by spending time with friends instead of going to music festivals.

But the fact is "we are going to solve malaria in Malawi by ending Bonaroo, steak, and shopping malls" is not a line that will play well with... like... anyone.

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[–] Ethalis@jlai.lu 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, not working shouldn't even be a goal here. What we should strive for is to build a society where work is empowering for the workers rather than alienating, where it benefits the whole society rather than just creating value for a select few

[–] OrteilGenou@lemmy.world 1 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

I mean, we couldn't do that very well even when we had strong families and strong communities, and unions were more common.

The last 30-40 years has seen individual independence grow alongside digital sequestration, communities disappear, families shrink, and unions almost fully evaporate.

What is required is a new revolution where luddites are given control and digital tools are eschewed, so that real community can grow again and total control of digital spaces ceases not because benevolent IT folks take control, but because digital spaces are eradicated entirely until an equitable way of using them without the current totalitarian bent can be agreed upon.

That's basically fiction at this point. Zero chance that happens. So then what is the option to combat the paradigm of establishing super convenient and useful digital worlds that have real strengths and usefulness, only to then use that strength and usefulness to create dependence and leverage that into data mining and total control of those who rely on the useful digital spaces?

The best hope at this point is a generation where totalitarianism and greed is completely rejected and the current philosophies of the uber-wealthy few are completely abandoned in favor of a decentralized system that uses the same algorithms designed to chisel every last dollar into upward-flowing profit to achieve actual, complete and mathematically-verifiable equality of resource across all people.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

[–] FelixCress@lemmy.world -2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That was where I stopped reading and taking him seriously. I don't know if we have enough clothes for 6 generations (and I somehow doubt it but I am happy to be educated) but the claim we don't need to work anymore is a fucking nonsense.

[–] Gerudo@lemmy.zip 7 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

For the clothes, yeah 6 gens might be stretching it, but definitely multigen. Think of all the fast fashion in the landfills. Think of your average department store of what's just on the shelves. Think of how often we dispose of perfectly good clothes out of our own closets. It adds up.

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 5 points 23 hours ago

Not to mention how far small simple repairs can extend the life of clothing.

Got a hole in your jeans? Many people would bin them. If you instead patch the hole you now have perfectly functional jeans again.

[–] onslaught545@lemmy.zip -5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

It's not true at all. Until robotics catches up and real AI is developed, we still need people doing shitty jobs like picking crops

Edit: And it's not even just shitty jobs. Humans working is essential to society functioning. There's not a single industry that can operate completely without human labor.

[–] iii@mander.xyz 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Rowcrops like corn and potatoes is one of those things that is heavily automated.

[–] onslaught545@lemmy.zip 0 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Ok, so since 2 crops are heavily automated, no human has to harvest crops again.

You're ignoring the fact that "heavily automated" still means humans are required to work, just not as many.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

first of all, picking crops isn't a shitty job. i did it two times in summer, it was fun. what sucked was the low pay and the bad quality of working colleagues that it caused.

[–] onslaught545@lemmy.zip 1 points 16 hours ago

I'm glad it was fun for you. I lived on a farm and working the fields in 110F weather fucking sucks.

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[–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Buddy just discovered communism

[–] Forester@pawb.social 3 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

Upcycling is not communism.

[–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 18 hours ago

Treating symptoms instead of the root cause is idealistic and utopian

[–] Bgugi@lemmy.world 2 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I think a lot of you people need to learn about hyperbole and missing the forest for the trees.

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 1 points 21 hours ago

People get pedantic when they don't agree with the main point. I'm not mad, it's to be expected.

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 1 points 19 hours ago

Omg i saw this on Tumblr today and almost posted it XD

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