I do partially agree but making the language less and less expressive because some individuals can’t or won’t learn simple rules is harming for everybody else.
this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2023
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Literally^1^ no one is harmed
^1^and I do mean literally, in the classical sense
Rules in languages serve the same purpose as standards in engineering. Sure, you don’t have to follow them. And if you want your home’s piping to use 81/13 inch diameters, knock yourself out. But it’s a pain for everyone who will ever be involved with that mess. And a lot of people are involved in your choice of words and grammar.
You're really comparing language to engineering
STEM brainrot take
STEM brainrot take
Gotta love a civil discussion.
I was able to clearly understand your message even though you defied prescriptive conventions by using "gotta"
Gotta love how language evolves. I'm going to fuck up so many conventions today, just you wait and see!
THEM: don't make language less expressive
YOU: wow you just used a thing that makes language more expressive CHECKMATE
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When it comes to grammar and syntax it makes sense though. Common rules help us understand each other.
Except that we're talking about individual words here. It's not as if we're saying verbs are over now or that all sentences have to be all "Shaka, when the walls fell" or something.
You could have made that point without being rude towards the entirety of the STEM community, but chose not to.
You're in a discussion about language but unable to navigate analogy? Or even just be civil and engage in a respectful manner? Maybe sit this one out.
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you're literally making their point for them by (deliberately) misinterpreting what they meant by "harm" in a way that wouldn't be possible if the language was more expressive
Not if I cause them harm.
Normally I say the "usage defines meaning" argument is flimsy at best and actively encourages misuse that ultimately limits the ability for precision and nuance in language. 'Since' isn't causal, 'because' (as one can guess) is. "I've been sick since Thursday" means one thing, "I've been dice because of Thursday" means a different thing.
But then an old farmer will tell you a story about needing to buy some rubbers because they're getting into their tranny and I think, "those words don't mean that to me."
I'd say that having three different words for "because" increases nuance. As the link to merriam-webster's article pointed out, you get a nuance of formality between "because" and "as"; "as" is somewhat more formal. I'm not sure if there's another nuance between "because" and causal "since" but smart money is on there being one (if you survey the use of the two I bet you will find there are very subtle differences of usage there -- there almost always are nuances of difference between supposedly synonymous words, even if they're only differences like level of formality).
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the "usage defines meaning" argument is flimsy at best
So what else does? I never understood how you can reason the objective meaning of a bunch of phonemes. If usage doesn't define meaning, you can look up the meaning in a dictionary. But if it's a good dictionary, it deduces the meaning of the word by its usage. There is ultimately no other way.
But then a good dictionary is ultimately personal, contextual, regional, and ephemeral, making it ultimately useless.
I will never recognise 'suposably' as a proper English word. But my children might, and so to their children, until it universally is a correct, proper word. That's the scope of the tide of language.
Its a necessary battle between the old ways and the new, one that I know I am ever drifting to the wrong side of. When some people use the word wrong, they are wrong. When everyone uses the word wrong, they are right. The old guard dies and the new gaurd rises.
Well put. That's not to say that dictionaries are useless. I use them alot but not in my native language since that's where I know the words. In English, which is my second language, dictionaries are close enough to help me around most of the times. It's like a map. The map isn't useless because a new road is build or a cabin is no more. You can still use the map but don't trust it over reality.
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Languages evolve, but you’re still allowed to have an opinion about how they should evolve.
People call it “political correctness” when you want to change things, or pedantry when you want things to stay the same or revert back.
I think it’s one of those George Carlin scenarios:
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
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I haven't seen an argument on English grammar because yesterday
You will not be forgiven for your since
I’ll save you the trouble of looking it up:
Since as a conjunction can refer both to causation and to the passage of time […], and the mavens believed strongly that since there's potential confusion over which meaning of since is meant, one should avoid since as a causal conjunction.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/since-as-because-usage
As a foreign learner I’ve never heard of this debate. To me, “since” simply has two meanings, like almost every other word in English.
naw that ain't the problem it's that I don't like how language is taught as something completely still and unchanging when it very much isn't
Two things.
- I agree with you 100%. Language shifts and changes over time. Sometimes in beautiful / useful ways and sometimes in ugly / detrimental ways (losing a word that was the only word that meant the thing that it meant for instance)
- If it changes based on how people use it, then why not use it in the way that you want to see it evolve. Maybe even advocate for it to evolve in the way that you see as beautiful / useful if it's that meaningful to you.
For example, I love that we verbify stuff more these days. That's super cool. I do it all the time because I love that active voice. On the other hand flammable and inflammable slowly becoming the same thing kinda sucks because now what word do you use when you want to say what "inflammable" used to mean? You can do it. Just not as nicely. If people evolve the language that way then fine, I'll go along. But if language naturally changes based on usage, what's wrong with using it the way that you want to see it become (or remain)?
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People also tend to forget that dictionaries were compiled for the sake of selling them for profit.
Dictionaries aren't the be all end all of a language.
If something accurately communicates an idea, then it has done its job. You can argue for accuracy, but at the end of the day, fuck off.
I don't think you can put this at the feet of BIG DICTIONARY.
Dictionaries are generally descriptivist and don't preach. It's style guides and individual angry language weirdos who preach.
I think it's funny when people use the dictionary like it's some perfectly unbiased and authoritative source, rather than a compilation of how people use words
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Holy shit we've really started going after big dictionary now as well? What's next, big water?
Don't go dragging Nestlé into this
a lot of them were made for national pride (not English ones necessarily)
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Someone compared dictionaries to maps. If the map shows a street that's unusable or doesn't show a street that's clearly there and leads to your goal, don't trust the map over reality. The map needs an update and so do dictionaries
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Seriously, be open to new interpretations! Don’t loose your head over something minor.
i'm not that passionate about this lol, it's less of the difference between since and because and more of the fact that language is being taught as being something completely concrete.
I might have phrased it poorly, I’m agreeing. Endeavoring to enable a language your familiar with to be as malleable its able to be, theirs nothing more commendable.
Are you fuckin trying to wind me up 🤨
Don’t loose your head
Now imagining someone telling a squad of archers to LOOSE!!! except the arrows are all tipped with little heads.
Agreed, we should of kown this.
I think english evolves faster than other languages or at least it has evolved a lot in the last centuries, at least in my limited experience. I can understand old german and medieval spanish with just minor issues... old english? No thanks
Easy way to spot somebody who's never tried to learn another language
i have
Nuh uh!
People huffing and puffing about other people not using words the way they expect: "God this wind is terrible, we need to abolish wind or at least make it blow in a different direction"
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Language also evolved differently in different regions and culture groups. Here in Louisiana we have much more French terms in average usage than other regions on the US. That doesn't mean that us using those term like "Laissez les bons temps rouler" is wrong at all ( and I do support voice removal of people that disagree) you can't control language because it develops to fill what it is needed for. In some regions conscience speech in important, in others more descriptive language is needed.
Language shouldnt be an authority defined thing, its defined by the speakers
In France there's an actual committee that's there to decide which words come and go from the language (l'Académie Française).
Nobody gives a fuck, in fact I think these days they're mostly just playing catch up by adding the words that get used the most that year.
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