this post was submitted on 02 Aug 2025
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Science

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[–] Gsus4@mander.xyz 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

Needless to say, at 19,000 Kelvin, the solid gold sample blew past that boundary, heating up to more than 14 times its melting point, which is about 1,300 Kelvin. The team suggests the speed of the heating likely kept the gold from expanding. They blasted the gold to its record-setting temperature in just 45 femtoseconds, or 45 millionths of a billionth of a second.

“The thing that’s intriguing here is to ask the question of whether or not it’s possible to beat virtually all of thermodynamics, just by being quick enough so that thermodynamics doesn’t really apply in the sense that you might think about it

The team notes that the second law of thermodynamics, which states that disorder increases with time, still stands—their work did not disprove it. That’s because the gold atoms reached their extreme temperature before they had time to become disordered, White tells Nature’s Dan Garisto.

Even still, researchers are now faced with a question they had considered all but completely solved nearly four decades ago, per New Scientist: How hot can something really get before it melts? If a material is heated quickly enough, there might be no limit, per the SLAC statement.

Sort of reminds me of the energy-time version uncertainty principle: if an interval is short enough, energy fluctuations can be extremely high.

What I'd like to know here is what the duration threshold to would allow fusion to start is.

[–] Wigners_friend@piefed.social -3 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (3 children)

Energy-time relations have no link to the uncertainty principle. They apply to classical cameras for instance. There are no "energy fluctuations", you cannot magically get energy from nothing as long as you give it back quickly, like some kind of loan.

This is because the energy-time relation works for particular kinds of time, like lifetime of excitations or shutter times on cameras. Not just any time coordinate value.

Edit: down votes from the scientifically illiterate are fun. Let's not listen to a domain expert, let's quote wiki and wallow in collective ignorance.

[–] Gsus4@mander.xyz 2 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (2 children)

Fine, I can say this in a way that does not violate energy conservation but still uses the energy-time uncertainty principle:

Say you have a system with two levels, hot and cold like the gold sheet in this experiment. Then I can take a linear combination of these two (stationary) states, between which which the period of oscillation would be deltat=h/deltaE, which would be the time for the system to "heat" and "cool" within 45 femtoseconds. (lifted from Griffiths, page 143)

That would give a deltaE>1.5E-20J compared with kT (T=19000K) = 27E-20J 🤔 (T=1300K) = 1.8E-20J so the fusion T is close to the oscillation limit, the extra energy for 19000K is not going to do anything unless the cooling slows down.

Soo...I don't understand the point of the experiment. It just looks like they're exciting ~~atoms~~ metal and then letting them quickly deexcite radiatively...and then wonder why they won't absorb huge amounts of energy and melt (if the energy remained within the system, it would). I probably would have to get the actual paper, but I don't wanna 😛

[–] Wigners_friend@piefed.social 2 points 11 hours ago

A reasonable approach, but melting is a phase transition. It's a collective behaviour. What the experiment shows is that quantum phenomena happen fast enough to make thermodynamics a bit strange. Probably because it is formulated in terms of continuous maths and atoms are discrete.

[–] zabadoh@ani.social 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

They didn't say anything about cooling the gold film.

They measured it lasted as solid at a certain temperature for a certain length of time after it had reached that temperature.

I'm sure it eventually melted, but the question was how long it stayed solid after being superheated past previously theoretical limits.

[–] Gsus4@mander.xyz 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

it lasted as solid at a certain temperature for a certain length of time after it had reached that temperature.

That's the problem, reading the quotes from my top reply even they seem to admit that what they are calling temperature is not what is usually called temperature in thermal equilibrium.

[–] zabadoh@ani.social 2 points 9 hours ago

It's a subtle distinction.

High temperature/energy leads to entropy/liquification, but I think what this experiment demonstrated is there's a short delay or "entropy build up curve" between high amounts of energy and the "transmission" of entropy through the solid molecular structure to a liquid state.

I'm not sure if I'm wording all this correctly.

[–] Redfox8@mander.xyz 4 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2489578-gold-can-be-heated-to-14-times-its-melting-point-without-melting/

"White and his team fired a powerful laser at a 50-nanometre thick sheet of gold for 45 quadrillionths of a second..."

As a rank amateur I don't understand the other discussions here, but my thinking is that if a material is heated up for such a short period of time, and also only in a very small location ("The laser was focused to a spot approximately 100 µm in radius"), not across the whole mass, then the energy will dissipate across the mass of the material without building up enough to break the bonds and melt.

For me, what'd be more significant to know is how long it'd take for melting to occur/what's the tipping point.

So I've skimmed through the journal article and:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09253-y

"Notably, the temperatures exceed the proposed limit of 3Tm in both cases for over 2 ps. This time is approximately an order of magnitude longer than the characteristic phonon oscillation period and, thus, much longer than required for homogeneous melting"

So the gold did melt, just not instantaneously!

"Our experimental findings raise an important question about the ultimate stability limit for superheating."

Right so both news articles avoid stating that melting occured so far as to suggest it didn't and that was what was significant...oh well, reading the journal article was interesting at least!

One question of mine I didn't see was answered is, what significance do the xrays have on the temperature and time taken to melting?

[–] obstbert@feddit.org 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

I'm also no expert in this particular topic, but the heat transfer to the surrounding material shouldn't play to huge a role. First because the material is very thin (50 nm) and second because the the X-ray focus is much smaller (5 um) so I would only probe the material in the middle of the heated spot.

The effect of the X-rays depends strongly on the intensity of the beam (which I can't figure out on mobile ATM). X-rays can definitely melt or vaporize material of this thickness when the intensity is high enough. In this case here it hopefully shouldn't affect the measurements to much.

[–] Redfox8@mander.xyz 1 points 7 hours ago

Thanks for that, much appreciated :)