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will stipulate the need for the release of all the hostages still held by Hamas
Ah, that old chestnut. So the UK will only recognise palestine as a state when the IDF says that all the hostages have been recovered.
So that'll be at the tail end of never then.
It's definitely pretty much impossible, since I am betting a few of the hostages have died since the capture without anyone being notified so even if they release everyone, the IDF can still claim they have some even though they likely died many weeks/months ago.
Yeah, it's pretty weak sauce. I don't see that the UK has much leverage, but that being the case, we ought to be just doing the moral thing. As I said in the OP, I do wonder how the chat with Trump - who, gods help us, is one of the few people who does have leverage - fed into the calculation of this statement.
Uk has ton of leaverage
I don't think so. Even Netanyahu's response to this shows he's going to ignore us completely.
Whatever it stop netenyahu or not doesn't matter. It's uk and any un state members obligation to use all their leaverage against a genocide since they signed the geneva and genocide convension
This is a perfectly fine argument that I already agreed with a mere two comments ago when I said:
I don’t see that the UK has much leverage, but that being the case, we ought to be just doing the moral thing.
With bold, this time. You know, in case it helps.
I don't see why you said even Netanyahu's response to this shows he's going to ignore us completely then.
We still disagree about the uk having no leaverage too
What kind? Genuine question, I don't know shit about this
Uk has no eminent security risk so there is no reason to by and sells arms from/to israel. Israel is the 44th trading parner of the uk so they can also impose sanctions on israel
Israel is the 44th trading partners of Israel? Sorry what the fuck are you trying to say here?
Ok makes sense now you've edited it 😀
I mean israel is only uk's 44th trade partner accounting for only about 0.3% of total UK trade. The uk could impose sanctions on israel
Is direct trade that only issue that determines whether or not sanctions could be applied?
Surely there's general politics bulshittery in the mix ?
Well I guess it's about the degree of leverage that you have. Trading is... A big stick.
why are those held by hamas “hostages” but those held by zionists “captives”?
Oh this one is simple.
Basically....
Same way people moving to the UK are referred to as migrants, but people leaving the UK call themselves ex-pats.
Well, Hamas explicitly kidnapped those people with the aim of using them for negotiations, whereas the people held by Israel are either prisoners or POWs.
Obviously, I don't trust the Israeli government an inch in terms of the guilt of those prisoners, fairness of the process or the conditions they're being held in, but there is a difference just as a matter of definition.
what is the difference between a kidnapped person and a pow if both are held for the purposes of negotiation?
hamas is a group fighting colonialism and invasion.
“israel” is a group doing colonialism and invasion.
I think the difference is civilian vs combatant. Unfortunately, Israel has designated all Palestinians as combatants to justify their slaughter.
https://www.aaiusa.org/library/debunking-all-palestinians-are-hamas
POWs aren't captured for the purposes of negotiation, that's the point. The Allies negotiated with the Axis over the release and transfer of POWs after WW2, but no one would call them hostages, on either side.
Look, as I said, Israel's government is terrible and treats people appallingly, but the answer to your original question really just is: because Hamas kidnapped those people intending to use them as hostages.
and you still don’t see my point - calling them hostages when they are actually pows is a thing because it delegitimizes the struggle hamas has in booting zionists out of palestine. call them what they are: pows.
heck if only because israeli adults are conscripted military assets anyway.
But not all the hostages were adults, nor were they even all Israelis, conscripted or not.
cool. the point still stands. hamas is not holding “hostages” if israel is holding “prisoners.”
You can't call people who got arrested by israel in land that doesn't belong to them prisoners. They may not be hostages but them being abducted is a fact
My argument is that they're not hostages, so I'm glad we agree.
I don't know why you've introduced this new argument about whether they're 'prisoners' but I suggest you take it up with, e.g., The Palestinian Prisoners Association.
Also good for Israeli PR...
I mean, as I said elsewhere, there's plenty to get annoyed about without also imagining new things. If an organisation kidnaps a bunch of civilians with a view to using them for extortion, those captives are hostages, and it is different to when even that very same organisation captures soldiers in a war, because those captives are POWs. Words do actually have a meaning! Not every usage of words is a matter of some overarching nefariousness!
There is no difference between what Hamas did and what Israeli regime does both are extra judicial detention aka kidnapping.
Okay, but, not to be excessively pedantic here, the question was not 'Are they both kidnappers?' (which, if a state can be said to kidnap people, then yes, I agree, they are), but 'Are all the captives hostages?' which, as I keep saying, is not at all clear.
But this isn't even a comparison which makes the Israelis look good! With hostages there's an implied intent to eventually release them (in exchange for whatever you want to extort). One of the reasons the Palestinians held by the Israelis aren't hostages is that Israel clearly has no intention of releasing them.
Abducting people without any demands from the captors is worse
Yes, that's what I said in the comment you're replying to.
What will probably happen: Israel will make a token gesture in the direction of relieving the famine, which will be insufficient or involve the killing of Palestinians by other means, and the UK will defer its recognition of Palestine “to evaluate the effects” of the new intervention. Rinse and repeat.
Yup this is what I thought. Shows that Starmer is doing "something" but it's just weasel words.
Israel will just cry "anti-semitism" and continue to do what they are doing. They don't even need a token gesture to continue being supported by most of the Western states.
a guarantee the terror group no longer rules Gaza, sources say.
No arms drop before the terrorist state of israel gives guarantees to end occupation
This is still pathetic, how about sanctions and arrest warrants for these genocidal nazi regens?
because the US wants to offer the nazis lucrative roles in their rocket programs.
One of the reasons Palestinian activists want recognition of statehood is that it will make it easier to obtain those things.
The caveats already make it pretty weak, we don't need to come up with other reasons!
International laws been raped by major power for decades. Not a goddamn thing will change even if all countries recognize palestine
* In a couple months, contingent on some weird conditions
IDK, man, it's a fucking emergency. To me, what would make more sense is "Israel will start to allow food trucks into Gaza without restriction by the end of the week, or else we'll be recognizing Palestine as a state and submitting to the ICC for an arrest warrant for crimes against humanity." Even that would be pretty weak compared to what they should be doing. I mean what they did is a start, it's good I guess, but it's still playing into letting Netanyahu run out the clock on the Gazans staying alive.
I also like how they demand of the Palestinians the end of Hamas leadership in Gaza, as if that hasn't been an Israeli project this entire time which a decent number of Palestinians are miserable about for semi-obvious reasons.