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Repeatable uncommanded discharges for the P320 (youtu.be)

submitted 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) by thundermoose@lemmy.world to c/guns@lemmy.world

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In case you can't watch the video, this guy was able to reproduce an accidental discharge several times by putting a tiny amount of input on the trigger and wiggling the slide. He used a screw wedged into the trigger to consistently put the trigger up to the wall so it's hard to argue human error anymore. His findings seem to indicate that if you have input on the trigger, even if it's not enough to fire, and the slide is bumped, the gun can fire (at least for his particular gun).

Hard to say how common this will wind up being since there are tens of millions of P320/M17/M18s out there. Still...more bad news for Sig, and even a one in a million chance is enough for most folks to not risk it. I have one and, while I already never considered carrying it thanks to the lack of an external safety, I'd never even risk holstering it for matches or practice now.

The evidence really seems to be pointing to a low tolerance for out-of-spec parts in the P320 design. Any gun manufacturer is going to be incentivized to cut costs over time, so that's a really bad combo.

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[–] Romkslrqusz@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I’m not able to replicate this on a P320 X Compact. In the comments on the video, I only came across one person claiming their firearm did the same thing, the other who said that it didn’t also had an X Compact.

It certainly shouldn’t be possible to make this release the striker when the trigger has not been pulled to / past the break, so I’m very interested to see where this goes.

With that being said, I don’t have absolute confidence in the “sub-millimeter” claim. Just by looking at it with the screw in place, you can tell that trigger is nowhere near “at rest”. Mine doesn’t look like that until I’m at the wall, but it also uses the flat trigger design.

[–] thundermoose@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It isn't at rest, the screw basically holds the trigger at the wall. I think he says that near the beginning of the video. All the take-up is out, so this is simulating what happens if your trigger has some pressure on it, but not enough to push it past the break.

Some pressure can be put on the trigger easily in some holsters, which is why I never felt comfortable carrying the thing. Even if I knew for sure my 320 didn't have this problem, it was still too much of a risk to me that if something snagged the trigger there'd be no external safety to make sure it couldn't discharge.

The M17/M18 does have such a safety, but my understanding is that the safety is just on the trigger itself. If this problem is real, it's possible that the same thing could happen anyway; the striker is always in tension and if the safety was a bit out of spec then the trigger could be put into the same position as shown in the video.

The video is not terribly scientific, but hopefully some of the other gun YouTubers will try to corroborate it as well and more data will come out. MoistCr1TiKaL made a video about it a few hours ago, so this is officially a mainstream issue that gets clicks. Just from the collections on the dozen or so gun channels I'm aware of, there's a sample size of many dozens of 320s to test with.

[–] Romkslrqusz@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Around 8:40 he makes a point to take measurements at rest and at the wall before including measurements that are somewhere between the two with the screw in place. I recall there being mention of the trigger only being “barely pressed”, not at the wall.

It’s definitely not very scientific, he is measuring the distance between two contoured objects with the firearm “floating” up in the air, so there’s a ton of potential for variance in those measurements.

I would have preferred to see the firearm laying flat during measurement so that we know both the tines of the caliper are against a flat surface.

[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I think a big problem is that Sig has been so obtuse about the problem that basically a random guy doing garage testing has become the only public and layman friendly source of anything even approaching transparent attempts to diagnose the issue and test the diagnosis.

[–] thundermoose@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

100%. Sig's handling of this is, without a doubt, going to be a landmark case study in how not to handle public relations. People getting communications degrees 50 years from now are going to read about it.

[–] thundermoose@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's around 7:30, he measures from the at-rest position to the wall. The screw is later put in to "barely press" into the wall. Definitely not very scientific, but I get what condition he's trying to simulate. The take-up does nothing, but when you hit the wall you are starting to put pressure on the seer. The implication here is any pressure on the seer combined with impacts to the slide can cause a discharge.

I expect there to be a flurry of videos trying to reproduce this on various 320 models. Should be an interesting week, even if the end result is bad news for Sig and 320 owners.

[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I get the feeling that between some of the quiet redesigns and the apparent variances in production we will be seeing a lot of "Well it works on my machine." results from people who don't get their Sig to fire like this.

I've already seen a few rabid Sig defenders making hay about the trigger being moved out of position even such a small amount being a tainted test, saying the guy who made the videos must have modified his pistol slides to rattle so much (because "it works on my machine."), or skipping past that and putting all blame on the holsters somehow.

It is clear to me that something is wrong with these pistols, and until Sig starts being honest some guy poking around at them in his garage is a better source of information than Sig's denial.

[–] The_Hideous_Orgalorg@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 days ago

I don't have a Sig, but I was just out with somebody that does. Passing this along to them.