this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2023
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[–] wopazoo@hexbear.net 23 points 2 years ago (5 children)

copying a comment from a hackernews post about the same topic:

  1. The FBI has been ruthlessly persecuting Chinese people with absolutely absurd charges. For example, "In a grant application you didn't list that you had met for coffee with X other student from your alma mater when you visited China for Lunar New Year. This constitutes fraud and possibly espionage." A grant application is not an SSBI application! These are genuinely absurd standards to be applying to people. The fact that the FBI has been overwhelmingly losing these racially motivated cases is cold comfort - having extremely powerful secretive police harassing you and your family is extremely distressing even if their case against you is ultimately unsuccessful, and the fact that they know they're losing and keep doing it suggests their intent is to try and discourage you from talking to any of your friends or family back in China, or leave the country. Careful what you wish for.

  2. Declared academic collaboration between academic institutions in the US and China is being cracked down on as well. People and their families are being investigated with no evidence given as to why, the federal government is contacting US universities and convincing them to end collaborative programs, etc. The reasons given, if any, are that the Chinese are stealing American technology through these academic collaborations. Thinking for two seconds about what, exactly, an academic collaboration is intended to accomplish should show how absurd the "stealing" idea is.

  3. A lot of the most valuable work in academia is collaborative, and a lot of the specific career value in being a Chinese national or having Chinese family ties in US academia is that you can function as an expert go-between for the two largest and most important countries for scientific research. When the US is not just devaluing but actively stigmatising some of your skills, it can force people to choose. The US is richer per capita, has more freedoms in many respects, etc, but the persecution by police is going to impact your assessment of where you'd rather live, especially when the PRC has open arms, lots of grant money, and scientists have a good position in society there too.

  4. Hate crimes against Chinese people have been increasing dramatically for years. Chinese communities know this and also see very clearly that it's not a priority for either political party to do anything about it. Not much to say about this, it's obvious why you wouldn't want to live somewhere where there are enough people in the population committing hate crimes against you that most people are in community with a victim, and then there's no political will to do anything about it.

  5. There's genuine concern about the possibility of war. If you know anyone in the American military, you know that war with China is on everyone's mind. Different dates get floated, from 2030 to 2027 to 2025, but it's essentially received wisdom in the US military that there is going to be a war in the westpac theatre at some point. This view ("We should be prepared") is also essentially bipartisan in the political realm, and American media are doing their part too. Chinese people notice, they can see the current (illegal, racist) persecution by the government, and most of them have enough historical knowledge to understand that the dynamics that lead to the Japanese internment camps haven't fundamentally changed - the camps themselves weren't even ruled to be illegal until 2018, only 5 years ago! If you were Chinese, would you want to stay in America and take the risk that you might end up confined to a camp, or wearing an ankle bracelet with a microphone everywhere just so the government can say that they didn't put a particular ethnic minority in literal camps? Genuinely, would you take that risk, with what you know about America? If the American government goes to war with China, and they decided on this sort of large scale persecution of Chinese people, do you think that any significant quantity of Americans with any political power would stand up for the Chinese people in America, or would it be like 9/11 where the government persecuted Muslims en masse and there was zero political will to stop them for years?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37018285

[–] jackmarxist@hexbear.net 21 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Love how everyone in the west believes that Chinese people literally cannot comprehend science without Stealing it from them. These are also the same people who discriminate against Asians for "being smarter than anyone else"

[–] wantToViewEmojis@hexbear.net 17 points 2 years ago (4 children)

"The Russians never invent anything. All they have, they’ve got from others. Everything comes to them from abroad—the engineers, the machine-tools. Give them the most highly perfected bombing-sights. They’re capable of copying them, but not of inventing them. With them, working-technique is simplified to the uttermost. Their rudimentary labour-force compels them to split up the work into a series of gestures that are easy to perform and, of course, require no effort of thought." - Adolf Hitler

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[–] Teekeeus@hexbear.net 15 points 2 years ago

Love how everyone in the west believes that Chinese people literally cannot comprehend science without Stealing it from them

Modern western society would collapse if they stopped stealing from others / exploiting the rest of the world

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 17 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Good post and they also forgot another very important point.

Chinese universities and the government are giving extremely good financial incentives for new research and for these researchers one of the primary obstacles in western academia is funding, this is much less of a problem in China. In fact money alone would be a reason for any academic to move to China and I'd encourage everyone to do so for their own career prospects imo regardless of ideology.

[–] CTHlurker@hexbear.net 17 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Reminds me of the all-hands meetings I had to attend when i worked at a university last year. Legit had to listen to some sanctimonous administrator talk about ensuring that Other Countries^tm^ did not "steal" our researchers. When i later spoke with a coworker about it, I joked that "how dare China pay more and offer better working conditions" and the guy just shrugged and said that he didn't really think it was a problem per se, but that the University was afraid of how it looked when everyone was looking elsewhere. I then countered by asking if we could maybe somehow hope to match these offers, and he just shrugged again and said that we had no hope for that kind of thing. Shortly after I had to attend a meeting about a new faculty facility that had gone over budget by roughly 250 million dollars, so wouldn't you know it, we're broke now.

[–] BynarsAreOk@hexbear.net 17 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Legit had to listen to some sanctimonous administrator talk about ensuring that Other Countriestm did not "steal" our researchers.

Oh boy reminds me

China lures increasing numbers of research scholars from Japan - Ample funding and openings attract talent frustrated by chances at home

I almost want to post this again since while the sinophobia shit is definitely an extremely important factor, it is also not really the only one. Clearly China is the place to be for easy funding and getting shit done.

[–] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 2 years ago

Also, our economy is going to crash so hard when we go to war, where the fuck are we going to get all our goods? They all talk about derisking from China, but I really haven't seen any convincing paths forward for that to actually happen

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I thought hackernews was a bunch of libertarians

[–] GaveUp@hexbear.net 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I mean that person probably is still a libertarian, just smarter than your average one

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago

I find them generally tremendously unempathetic people who still feel extremely confident in making grand proclamations about how poor people or people in other countries think and feel.

[–] wopazoo@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

hackernews isn't a monolithic group, there exists all sorts of people on there

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[–] Flinch@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago

xigma-male it's 4pm, time for your century of humiliation!

yes, honey yes-honey-left

[–] CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 2 years ago

I read this as "Scientists of Cheese descent" at first and was very confused.

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 11 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Good, fuck the US. I would hate to be a scientist in the US. What would you even study? How to make diabetics buy Coke?

[–] Teekeeus@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

It's probably more lucrative for highly educated americans to go into finance than do actually useful things

[–] Wheaties@hexbear.net 9 points 2 years ago (4 children)

someone told me once that at least half of the people studying fluid dynamics go on to model the stock market rather than anything scientifically interesting

[–] TraschcanOfIdeology@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

So many talented/cool mathematicians I went to college with are now just getting boatloads of money being "data analysts/scientists" for consulting firms or startups. It's really a shame

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[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago

Finance capital maintaining dominance over industrial capital as the rate of profit declines? thinkin-lenin who could've predicted this.

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[–] GVAGUY3@hexbear.net 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

My friend rides a boat and collects samples in the ocean. She says it gets really depressing because so much climate change data.

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[–] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 11 points 2 years ago (13 children)

Burgerland ideology seems to seriously believe that scientific progress depends on "disruptive innovator" billionaires and not actual fucking scientists. I think that ideology partially drives government (and private corporate) policy, which causes material conditions to worsen enough for actual fucking scientists to leave. joker-amerikkklap

[–] TraschcanOfIdeology@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Based on what the people I know in academia/university research have told me, the research landscape I the US/canada is fuuuucked, too. There's barely any federal/public funding and corporate partnerships where the research is increasingly risk-averse/uncreative are becoming the norm.

[–] very_poggers_gay@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago

In Canada, the typical scholarship that graduate students are expected to fund themselves with haven't changed in amount for 20 years. It's been 17.5k/yr for master's level students, and 20k-35k/yr for PhD students since 2003. In those 20 years, minimum wage has more than doubled in Canada, tuition has more than doubled, rent has tripled or more, faculty wages have doubled, etc.. Everything is more expensive, and everyone else is earning more, but we are expected to live on the same 20k/yr as our supervisors did 20 years (which is now well below the Canadian poverty line, and that's before we shell out 20% to tuition).

Rent in major cities for a 1 bedroom pushing past 1.5-2k/month, it's rough, and tuition ranges from 5k-10k/yr (which, afaik, is never waived here)

I joke (half-seriously) that I pay half my income to tuition, and the other two thirds goes to rent. And I'm one of the "lucky" ones that actually got a scholarship for graduate studies... kitty-birthday-sad I'd estimate that half the grad students I know applied and didn't win any scholarships

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[–] InevitableSwing@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Of the survey respondents who have obtained US federal grants 45% say that they will avoid applying for such awards for fear of making mistakes in the application process that could lead to them being investigated.

Xiaoxing Xi is mentioned in the article and I wondered what Wikipedia had to say about him.

This jumped out at me: "According to Xi's lawyer Peter Zeidenberg, the government did not understand the complicated science and failed to consult with experts before arresting him."

Xiaoxing Xi

False accusation of spying

In 2015, police raided the home of physics professor Xi Xiaoxing and arrested him at gunpoint in front of his wife and 2 daughters. The US Justice Department (DOJ) had accused the scientist of illegally sending trade secrets to China: specifically, the design of a pocket heater used in superconductor research, threatening him with 80 years in prison and $1 million in fines. The scientist's daughter Joyce Xi said, "newscasters surrounded our home and tried to film through windows.

The FBI rummaged through all our belongings and carried off electronics and documents containing many private details of our lives. For months, we lived in fear of FBI intimidation and surveillance. We worried about our safety in public, given that my dad’s face was plastered all over the news. My dad was unable to work, and his reputation was shattered."

Temple University forced the professor to take administrative leave and suspended him as chair of the Physics Department. He was also banned from accessing his lab or communicating with his students directly. It was later learned that FBI agents had been listening to his phone calls and reading his emails for months — possibly years.

In September 2015, however, the DOJ dropped all charges against him after leading scientists, including a co-inventor of the pocket heater, provided affidavits that the schematics that Xi shared with Chinese scientists were not for a pocket heater or other restricted technology. According to Xi's lawyer Peter Zeidenberg, the government did not understand the complicated science and failed to consult with experts before arresting him.

He said that the information Xi shared as part of "typical academic collaboration" was about a different device, which Xi co-invented and which is not restricted technology.

Suit against the government

Xi sued the United States and the FBI agents over violations of fourth and fifth amendment rights. The suit alleges that Xi was surveilled without a warrant and the FBI knowingly made false claims. In 2021, Xi a Philadelphia court rejected his legal claims for damages. The judge ruled that the claims involved matters of discretion and judgement of the defendants. Xi's appeal was argued in Sept, 2022.

However, recent Supreme Court decisions will make it difficult to obtain damages for violations of constitutional rights.

[–] TillieNeuen@hexbear.net 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

However, recent Supreme Court decisions will make it difficult to obtain damages for violations of constitutional rights.

this-is-fine

[–] InevitableSwing@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

That really jumped out at me. I wonder how shitty the lib justices were. Was the decision 6-3 or 7-2 or 8-1 or 9-0?

[–] TillieNeuen@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The wholesome FBI was just protecting rules-based order! So what if they trampled on some Constitutionally-guaranteed rights and freedoms along the way?

[–] InevitableSwing@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

wholesome FBI

It's so weird that now. All the boldface Democrats <3 the FBI and they don't care what it does. And in general all the GOP hate the FBI or pretend to. If the GOP grabs the presidency - they'll get the FBI to do what they want. And then the GOP will <3 the FBI. And the dems will hate the FBI or pretend to.

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[–] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago

Clearly he must be a foreign agent, see hes even related to Xi!

frothingfash

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[–] Tachanka@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

de dollarization accelerating

IMF accepts yuan for payments

South America and Africa rejecting US hegemony

BRICS growing stronger

xi-peel it's happening

[–] jackmarxist@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago

Inb4 Modi fucks up BRICS because China. I'll literally just move out of india if that happens.

[–] Kuori@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago

holy shit what an powerful emoji

[–] JuryNullification@hexbear.net 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Real brain drain hours. It’s good to see it effecting the US instead of the US being the beneficiary.

Science funding in the US is such a shit show. I’m glad I only know scientists and I was too stupid and poor to go into academia.

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[–] kristina@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

i looked up my old professor that i loved and was part of the CPC and apparently hes back in china working on some biology project deeper-sadness maybe if i go on vacation to china one day ill ring him up. dude was a kickass professor, everyone loved him

[–] Othello@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago (8 children)

i always thought about teaching in china but my partner wouldn't be down.

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[–] sovietknuckles@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (8 children)

The comment section is wild

[CW: racism]

Comment 1.
Is there sensitive info theft by Red China?
Comment 2.
The author tends to twist the narrative to sound racial, sometimes using "Chinese" orher tines "Asian". Chinese may be from Taiwan and Asian includes Korean, Japanese, Indian, etc.
So, which is it - from Red China or elsewhere?
Given that everything in PRC is under CCP control anything available to Chinese citizens in US is also available to CCP, how is it possible to allow such citizens access to sensitive info?

This sounds like well dressed talking points of the CCP.

“Scientists of Chinese descent“ is a misleading term. If they’re returning to their country of origin that makes them Chinese citizens. The issue has nothing to do with race as is implied by the article. It’s political. If any racism is involved it’s on the part of the CCP, which conflates nationality with ethnicity, viewing “others“ as those to be either assimilated or subjugated. If this is doubtful just ask the Uighurs how they feel about racism in China. Or better yet, take a trip there yourself.

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[–] wombat@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

the maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry

[–] bigboopballs@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)
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[–] Llituro@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago

sicko-laser oh yeah, that's the good stuff. godspeed and inshallah to the self-interested non-comrades who can see that american capitalism has nothing left to offer them.

[–] LeZero@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago

White libs will probably take this as a confirmation that they were CCP agents all along, rather than the most likely situation which is that anti Chinese racism in the US keep escalating as they manufacture more and more consent for conflict against CHINA

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