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Mike Pence is such a weird individual.
I think he hasn't figured it out it's all a grift. When Trump asked him to override the election, he seemed like he was very genuinely trying to figure out what the right thing to do was. He called Dan Quayle for God's sake. I think he followed through on refusing to go along with the scheme because he really thought it was right, and as a good Christian he was trying to do the right thing. I watched the footage of when the counting reconvened on the night of January 6th at like 2 in the morning, and he sounded for maybe the first and only time I have ever seen him speak, he had some backbone. I had some respect for him in the way he dealt with administering the electoral count when people tried to put up challenges to it.
I think he thinks it's all real. All of it. Anti abortion, God needs helper warriors on the Supreme Court, Evangelicals are saving the country from liberals who are trying to destroy it, conservative voices are under attack, the whole damn thing. I don't think he's lying or doublethinking it so he can get more power and money for him and his friends. I think he bought into it; he's still the little kid who's going to church and gets scared for his life thinking about going to Hell and wants to change his ways. It doesn't mean he's not dangerous, but maybe he's not actually a bad person -- just, he bought into it, and it makes him vulnerable to the bad people telling him what's what and him believing them.
Here's the thing though, you're never going to get an objective measure of morality or ethics. Some will think the context you shared absolve him, either fully or in part. Hurt people hurt people, and all that. Some will say it doesn't matter, culpability lies with the individual regardless of context. Oftentimes, people even have contradictory views on this issue when applied to different people.
You're probably gonna get a lot of shit here for suggesting Pence isn't responsible for his actions defending a theocratic state, but I get what you're angling at. I don't agree, but it's valid, as long as you extend that same philosophy to others. Is the serial killer not responsible because he has a mental illness or a poor upbringing? Is Trump not responsible just because his dad was a piece of shit? Is a member of a gang responsible for a drive by shooting when he had no other opportunities to escape his situation? Is a member of Hamas responsible for their actions even when growing up in an apartheid state? To what degree are all of those examples responsible for using or not using the full breadth of their abilities to not let those circumstances make you perpetuate harm? Up to your personal worldview and ethics. It's a complex question with no easy answer, but there will be huge chunks of people who insist that the simplest answer on either extreme is true and that should be avoided imo.
Agreed 100% with what you said. I didn't mean for it to come across like I was giving him a pass on the impacts of his actions.
Actually to expand on it: You're responsible for your outcomes whatever they are and whatever your reasons. I don't think it matters if you "didn't mean any harm" or whatever. If you're too scared to protect someone from violence when you could have, or too lazy to feed your family, it's not like you're out to hurt anybody, but yeah, your actions are hurting somebody. It's your responsibility to overcome your bullshit. In this case, Pence doesn't seem like he has the full moral courage to realize now that he's an adult that he bought into a bunch of shit and he needs to leave it behind. Michael Cohen did it, the Little Green Footballs guy did it. It's hard but it's not impossible.
It makes no difference if your issue is abusiveness or laziness or gullibility; if it's hurting someone and you're directly involved, you're responsible for putting a stop to it. It's easier said than done sometimes, I'm not trying to say imperfect means evil, but still at the end of the day, you did what you did. If he winds up instrumental in killing a bunch of women with ectopic pregnancies, I don't think he gets to go up to St. Peter at the end of his life (metaphorically speaking) and say "Oh my bad, some people told me it was fine, and I didn't really think that much about it. Means it's all good right?"
Well, we should be careful with that extreme also. It neglects the role that context and environment plays in our lives. It rejects the notion that societal problems have impacts on adverse behavior because it can sweep it all under the rug in the name of "personal responsibility". Again, there is no easy answer. Humanity will wrestle with this question until its dying days because it is entirely subjective. Assuming you are not actually religious, there is no objective St. Peter to tell them they're wrong. They just die and it's up to those who remain to define the ethics of what they did and left.
Yeah, agreed.
And for the gang member to work his way out of that life is much much harder than for someone in the State Department to put active resistance against giving aid for Israel. Or for Pence to make his change, or whatever. And usually there's no one to help him with any of it.