this post was submitted on 09 Feb 2024
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how am I supposed to understand this, what is the context here?
An Israeli player said "It's known that they are quite anti-semitic" and the entire irish team felt so offended by that that they decided not to shake the hands of the israeli team? To show them how unfounded the allegations are?
What are the details here? the article doesn't really say much
You too, seem to misunderstand the same thing that the Israeli team misunderstood. ~~Sweden~~ Ireland does not like what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. ~~Sweden~~ Ireland has nothing against Jews but does not like Israel's genocide on Palestine. There is a difference between the country and the religion and antisemitism is used for the religion alone.
It's like if you argue that you're getting downvoted because of antisemitism when you're actually being downvoted because you are wrong. It has nothing to do with religion
And the Israeli basketball team is the one commiting genocide somehow?
By calling Ireland antisemites, for not liking what Israel is doing to Palestine, they are not really distancing themselves from it are they.
Were they calling Ireland anti semitic in general or were they calling the basketball team anti semitic? Because I think we both know that most of Ireland is pro Palestine and calling Irish people anti semitic for that would be outrageous, but do we know whether or not the statement about the basketball team has any proof to it?
I believe that this is the exact point of the article. The way I read it, the Irish team was facing pressure to not play the game due to Israel's actions and I believe that the comment from the Israeli player was pointed at this.
that's what's odd about it. The article says the reason the team didn't shake hands was because of 'wholly inaccurate accusations of antisemitism'. So does that mean they would have shaken hands if one of the israeli team members had not made that accusation? Or were they just looking for a reason? This is what seems odd to me. If we imagine Ireland playing against an african nation that is also torn by war and conflict. If one of their team members accused the irish team of racism, and as a consequence, the entire irish team refuses to shake hands with the African team because they are so offended by these accusations. That would be really weird. That's why I asked for more context.
That is incorrect. Anti-Judaism is the (much older) component of antisemitism that is used for religion alone. While it is wrong to say that any criticism against israel is antisemitic, it is equally wrong to say that criticizing Israel is never antisemitic. in some cases it is. Sadly many people refuse to have this discussion. Israel exists because of antisemitism, not the other way around.
You need to edit Wikipedia for you to be rigt
It says Jews not Isrealis and we're back to it being about religion and not the nationality
I don't. If you click on "Jews" on the wikipedia it says right in the beginning:
The jewish are a people. Many of them aren't even religious. Antisemitism created israel. and not the other way around.
Here another wikipedia article on distinguishing antisemitism and criticism of Israel.
It sounds like you are right, but I don't feel this is the way it's being used. Or maybe the world is moving towards a distinction and seperatuon of the two?
Also, what do you mean with Israel exists because of antisemitism?
Well I think the reality is really complex and intertwined. Jewish people live in Israel because, historically speaking, they aren't safe anywhere else. In this context here: It would be safe to say that the jewish player's ancestors sought refuge in Israel because they were not welcome in the country they previously lived in (That could be Germany, Russia, Yemen, Iran etc). Many of them had no other choice and for many, Israel was the only hope for a life in dignity and safety. Completely separating jewish identity and israeli identity is impossible, it is connected.
In a way I agree. The concept of anti-semitism is used when it is convenient. People are called anti-semites when they call out the war crimes commited by Israelis far right government, and likewise people categorically refuse to acknowledge that criticizing israel can be antisemitic. It is totally polarized, and people don't care about context anymore.
Zionism is a movement founded by european jews who have suffered from persecution for centuries. So they believe that to protect themselves from their oppression, they needed an own nation. Jews started to understand themselves as a people. And not to mention, The Shoa made millions of people seek refuge in Israel/Palestine after world war two. So in short, if anti-semitism wasn't a thing, the nation-state of Israel wouldn't even be an idea.
I hear this claim a lot. But in the view of the recent killing of over a thousand Israeli's this really doesn't seem to be true. Israel also constantly claim to be surrounded by hostile nations which would eradicate all of them given the chance. From this perspective countries like the US, while far from being free of antisemitism seem more safe for Jews than Israel.
The only thing Israelis in Israel are safe from, is antisemitism from the sate. But as we've seen the state has catastrophically failed to ensure the safety of their citizens. And they continue to make the whole situation worse and are currently ensuring that at least for one or two generations the hatred between Israel and Palestine will continue.
I guess that is the big tagedy. which leads a lot of israeli into very militant and isolationist positions. Defending autonomy and self determination at all costs. Which also causes a lot of suffering on other people.
Big tragedy is a pretty apt description of the whole fucking shit show in that conflict.
I can see how a lack of context could be confusing, but Irish leadership have condemned Israel's genocide in Palestine and compared it to The Troubles and other past conflicts between Ireland and the larger Great Britain. Basically, Ireland and Israel have poor international relationships because Ireland doesn't like the way Israel slaughters tens of thousands of people while starving out millions based solely on ethnicity.
This bad relationship has affected how the two sports teams interact with each other, and the Israeli pre-emptively insulted the Irish basketball association officials and team leadership before the match even began, so of course they won't be given bare minimum mutual respect when they show up to the matches in the future.
All I can find is that one team member called the irish team 'quite antisemitic'. I just don't see why that would be so upsetting. If it is unfounded, move on, don't make a big deal out of it. For some reason, being accused of antisemitism is a bigger of a deal than actually being antisemitic. And that is the reason why I am confused about it. One Israeli player says the irish team is antisemitic, the irish team gets angry and refuses to shake hands. Alright. But what is the context here? what exactly are the reasons why the israeli player made these accusations? And why does nobody care about the context? Everyone already decided whether the accusations are unfounded or not, without even knowing anything about the context. Imagine someone being accused of racism without being given any sort of context. And everyone already has an opinion whether the accusation is unfounded or not. It's just weird.
As far as I understand, you're confusing the reasons here.
Nothing that you say needs context is causally related, and no context other than that provided by others in this thread seems to really be needed
yeah, I think it is strangely twisted. It has nothing to do with the accusation of anti-semitism, it is just israel they don't like. They never wanted to shake the hands of the israeli team, and just used the player's comments as a reason.
Because it's part of ongoing verbal attacks by Israel at Ireland. This isn't an isolated incident it's part of a much wider whole.
The accusation is 100% unfounded, the Israeli players are just idiots representing with pride a nation run by bloodthirsty killers. There is no room for benefit of the doubt, here. Tolerance ends with the intolerant.
With a history as messy and complex as Palestine/Israel, yeah, obviously there is room for doubt. Refusing to have a discussion here doesn't help anyone.
you don't even know why exactly the player made these accusations. you're just making assumptions.
Please, tell me precisely at which point the israeli team proved themselves intolerant?
Its not that messy and its not that complex. Modern Israel was created as a place where antisemetics could send jews post WWII. That involved relocating the current residents who took the land by force previously. Israel forces Palestinians into districts with lower form of citizenship. Then Israel took more of the land. And more. And when people refuse to leave or have nowhere else to go then Israel creates a reason for the conflict and kills them.
Netanyahu helped install Hamas as leadership in Palestine and keep them funded. Its all pretty straightforward. Israel is a genocidal apartheid state.
Sorry, you can't explain what is happening there in 5 lines of text and just say it is "not that messy and complex". It might seem all straightforward within the narrative that you subscribe to, but that is at most only a part of the story. Just Have the decency and acknowledge that.
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