this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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I've recently read"The Verge: Reformation, Renaissance, and Forty Years that Shook the World" and want to hear what all of you think the answer is, because I feel like the book was missing something in its thesis and I am not very sure what that is.

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[–] Doubledee@hexbear.net 28 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (11 children)

Europe had a host of material conditions that led it to this position. It is relatively resource poor, and was constantly strapped for hard currency because the trade routes with the rest of the known world were mostly one way: Chinese people didn't want a wool shirt from England, but English lords wanted silk and spices and porcelain.

This led to robust and relatively stable networks of credit that allowed nobles to engage in increasingly sophisticated and expensive versions of war and exploitation because they had to in order to keep up with their neighbor, who was trying to do the same thing. Because they were always in debt they had to keep doing more expensive things to secure more resources to pay back creditors, and build institutions to manage their money and regulate finance to keep everything from collapsing.

Eventually some landlords on an island found themselves in a new social relation to their tenants, where it was in their best interest to let them make their own living somewhere else instead of farming, and charging rent instead of feudal dues. This put everyone else on the same track or they risked being priced out of their lands and titles by a new class using a new form of socialized labor.

Essentially Europeans had to compensate for their economic disadvantages in ways that drove them to invent systems that created more productive capacity extremely quickly. I got most of this from The Origin of Capitalism, Graeber's book on Debt, The Verge and Hell on Earth. But that's my elevator pitch when I talk to people about this.

Edit: Since you read the Verge I'll just add, I think it's missing class analysis, it is looking at a set of economic structures and observing that they tend in a direction without tying it to social relations of production. I heartily recommend Wood's The Origin of Capitalism on that point specifically.

[–] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)

Thanks for the bibliography, I’ll check out the rest of the stuff in there.

A theme that keeps seeming to come up is luxury goods. Do you think it would be fair to say Europe is rich in useful goods (iron, wood) and poor in everything else? If Europe was truly that poor it wouldn’t be able to actually conquer anyone. Unless I’m mistaken on how poor is meant.

Is debt a good first Graeber? I really should read him soon. He keeps coming up.

[–] Doubledee@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A theme that keeps seeming to come up is luxury goods. Do you think it would be fair to say Europe is rich in useful goods (iron, wood) and poor in everything else? If Europe was truly that poor it wouldn’t be able to actually conquer anyone. Unless I’m mistaken on how poor is meant.

Well in the context of international trade it was poor. Iron is all over the place, trees are pretty common. Europe had nothing other places couldn't get for themselves, and a strong incentive to develop a method for getting things it wanted by a means other than exchanging precious metals for them.

I think Debt is the first of his books I read, I think it's a good one, approachable and also concrete. Would recommend.

[–] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So the shipbuilding was purely an incentive structure thing?

As for iron, it varies so much in what a particular deposit is good for… I should have specified that it’s actually good iron that doesn’t need the katana treatment to make a solid sword. Unless that’s a myth and I’m dumb. The point of this post was to learn lol.

[–] Doubledee@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What's required to produce those things at a scale that matters is a transformation of social relations that frees up a bunch of people and forces them to do new, alienating work. It's not enough to have good techniques, you need to fill a nasty city with people who have to be there using them to make a hundred new ships a year.

As with your katana example, technology was not unique to Europe. Many of the things they ended up using to dominate the world came from China, the Arab world, etc. But they had incentives to escalate the use of expensive technology and a social base that was suddenly uprooted by a new form of market relations that killed the previous ways people met their needs.

Economies are, at their core, a social phenomenon, not a technological or resource system. So I wouldn't discount technology and such as contributors but I don't think they are the main cause of the transformation Europe experienced.

[–] GinAndJuche@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

THANK YOU.

you made so much stuff click with that explanation. Genuinely good at teaching, you are,

[–] Doubledee@hexbear.net 3 points 2 years ago

That means a lot. Thanks. I'm glad it made sense.

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