this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2023
232 points (72.2% liked)
Lemmy Shitpost
33733 readers
4427 users here now
Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.
Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!
Rules:
1. Be Respectful
Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion.
Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here.
...
2. No Illegal Content
Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required.
That means:
-No promoting violence/threats against any individuals
-No CSA content or Revenge Porn
-No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing)
...
3. No Spam
Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules.
-If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community.
-Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community.
-No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers
-No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community.
...
4. No Porn/Explicit
Content
-Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content.
-Do not post Gore or Shock Content.
...
5. No Enciting Harassment,
Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts
-Do not Brigade other Communities
-No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy.
-No Witch Hunts against users/communities.
-No content that harasses members within or outside of the community.
...
6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.
-Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.
-Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.
...
If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.
Also check out:
Partnered Communities:
1.Memes
10.LinuxMemes (Linux themed memes)
Reach out to
All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules. Striker
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The word you're looking for is omnivore, not carnist.
How many house plants have you killed not for the purpose of your own survival? Nobody can disregard life like a militant vegan.
Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits π€·
To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
this cannot be proven, but even if it's true, it doesn't matter. sentience is an arbitrary charcteristic on which to base your diet.
Sentience is what I base my ethics on (i'm a sentientist or sentiocentrist), which has implications on diet when considering whether to exploit and/or kill sentient beings for food. I don't think it's arbitrary, if someone is sentient, they are morally relevant because they can experience positive and negative valence (pleasure/pain, to put it more plainly but lose some nuance). If something is not sentient, I don't see how it can be ethically relevant except in cases where the nonsentient thing matters to a sentient being
if you're looking for arbitrary, the anthropocentrists are that way
Also I agree we can't prove that plants aren't sentient, that's why I said "to the best of my knowledge"
this is a moral virtue only to utilitarians.
there are other approaches to sentientism that aren't based on valence. I don't feel like writing a book on the different ones, but to give an example of a rights based one that I think is strong is that every sentient being has, at the very least, a right to their body, since that's the one thing they're born with and that is (almost certainly) what gives rise to their sentience in the first place. And to violate another sentient beings bodily autonomy is to forfeit your own (a sort of low level social contract), which allows for self defense and defending others
but to go back to utilitarianism, I think there's a strong argument that most ethical frameworks can be defined in terms of a sufficiently creative definition of utility. I don't really feel like getting into the weeds of that discussion though, and I don't think it's particularly relevant to the conversation anyways
it is. your ethical position is highly relevant to any ethical argument you present.
Then present yours lol
Sentientism answers the question of "who/what matters?", not "what ethical framework should be used to care about who/what matters?". It can underly many ethical frameworks, personally I don't care that much what ethical framework you use as long as we can agree on who's included in the moral scope (although there are some utilitarians who I think have bad definitions of utility and/or do a bad job weighing the utility)
I'm not presenting an argument. I'm questioning yours.
I have to admit, I skipped the rest of this sentence on I don't foresee myself attempting to read it: I don't believe in rights as an objective phenomenon, either.
this is a good reason to doubt the validity of the theory: it is constructed in a way that it is not disprovable.
this is just a tu quoque
I explained why it's not arbitrary, then pointed to a group that does draw arbitrary distinctions. That's not tu quoque because I'm not saying "you also"
you're saying it's not arbitrary. "no, you" is still a form of tu quoque. you haven't actually made a case that sentience isnt an arbitrary standard, and there isn't a case to be made: sentience isn't a natural phenomenon outside of human subjective classification. without people, there would be no concept of green or warm or sentient, and any of those attributes is an arbitrary standard to use to judge the ethics of a diet.
Are you saying everything we can talk about is arbitrary because everything we can talk about is with words and concepts?
Are you talking about meriological nihilism? (thanks alex oconnor for teaching me that term lol)
I know sentience is real based on the fact that I'm experiencing things right this moment. Based on my understanding of the brain and nervous system, and the strong evidence that those things give rise to my sentience, I think that it's reasonable to extrapolate that other, similar nervous systems/brains are also sentient and their experience is worth consideration in a similar way to how I consider my own experience (among the many other reasons to have a basic level of empathy)
why sentience and not DNA? or literally any other characteristic? your standard is absolutely arbitrary.
the same can be said of DNA. this is a completely arbitrary standard, and you would be better served to embrace that than pretending it's somehow objective.
I'm not saying it is objective, I'm saying it's not arbitrary.
If my dna was isolated in a test tube and it could experience things then I would also care about what it experiences. There isn't any evidence I'm aware of that that's the case. Dna is the instructions and tool to build the sentient being, not the sentient being itself. So no, the same couldn't be said of dna. Extrapolating from how much I care about what I experience, I think it's reasonable to care about what things that experience things experience
this can't be true. it's self-contradictory.
ok, taboo the word arbitrary. What do you mean when you say arbitrary?
I mean there is no objective reason to set the standard at sentience any more than any other standard.
Then based on the way you are using arbitrary, I see why you think my position is arbitrary. Do you think all positions are arbitrary?
all subjective opinions, like ethics or aesthetics, are.
Once you go to a deep enough layer I think you're right. But, the one subjective thing my argument rests on is that you care about your own experience. Anyone who flinches away from touching a hot stove because it hurts cares about their experience at least a little. The next step is recognizing that from an objective view, there's no reason to think your subjective experience is any more important than anyone elses (subjectively there is).
we are going to, once again, disagree on the relevant definition of "anyone".
That seems to bother you. Let's taboo the word. When I say "someone", "anyone", "person", etc, I'm referring to a sentient being, a subject of experience, an experiencer, one who is experiencing. Now you can interpret what I'm saying better, do you disagree with the actual points I'm making?
yes, I do: sentience is too broad a category, and not actually relevant to most people. if we are talking about people, then all of your statements are fine. but I don't agree that these axioms are or should be applicable to, say, mosquitos . or mice. or dogs or cats. or fish. or livestock.
Why is sentience too broad? afaik all humans are sentient, otherwise we'd be philosophical zombies (or there would be p-zombies among us)
it's too broad because it includes mosquitoes and mice and dogs and cats and fish and livestock. most people don't treat them the same way. most ethical systems don't treat them the same way. My ethical system doesn't treat them the same way. so I do not agree that it's okay to write an axiom about how you're supposed to treat sentient beings. treating people better than animals is a good thing.
are your ethical views based on what most people have done historically? Or how most ethical systems view something? What is your ethical system?
what is/are the difference(s) between human and non-human animals that justifies treating humans better than non-humans?
name the trait is a fallacious line of argument because it falls prey to the linedrawing fallacy.
Hell even to get past solipsism you have to subjectively assume to that your mind and senses accurately reflect the world at least a little bit, otherwise gathering any accurate data or reasoning about that data productively would not be possible
right....