this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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Americans will literally do anything to not build trains
I would love to have both. Especially trains! The trains here are so bad though. They cost more than flying and are such a hassle to deal with. The train stations are sometimes far away from the city in some cases too. So you need a ride from the station.
I would support building that out if it was offered.
The roads are there. They ain't moving skyscrapers in major cities! For better or worse, American travel is very road-based, and we'll never have as many diverse options as some other countries...
Or just build trains. Which move tons of people, every day, for cheaper, safer, faster and overall more efficient ways. Don't have space for a train track? Make it a tram. Problem solved by changing up a road for cars into a road for cars and trains.
Or do what has been done for over a century now and just build the train line underground if there’s no room above. It’s more expensive, but in moderately dense cities that can still be worth it.
There's public transport in large and dense cities. It doesn't work to move around the country very well. These people that think something that works in a country that's smaller than an individual state in the US should work fine are "special".
... but this is Detroit which is a city that can support NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL teams. We're not taking about the sticks here
Japan is the size of the entire east coast and has high speed interconnected rail.
There's only about 800 cities to connect in all of Japan.
There's about 19,000 in the US.
You prove my point. Japan is small and easy to get everywhere by rail. The US is not.
Yeah, area wise Japan is about 60% the size of Texas. With Japan having more than twice the GDP. Seems pretty straight forward why infrastructure should be better there. Japan has 4x the populous as well. Makes a lot more motivation to focus on public transport.
Trains are amazing for small countries, or between cities. The problem comes when you take into consideration how spread out the US is. You will always have cases where a car is needed, it’s unavoidable.
EVs are not a perfect solution, by a long shot. And ideally we would move away from cars being ubiquitous in America, but that is many, many years off. It’s better to work towards that slowly than it is to say “well it’s not perfect so let’s just not.”
You will always have cases where a car is needed, it’s unavoidable. That’s because it’s designed for cars. We have huge parking lots designed for cars but nothing for public transport. Whenever I travel to NYC or Chicago, I can go anywhere in trains and buses. In my city, I can’t even get milk without driving to a store.
isn't that exactly what trains were designed for and are best at?
You are correct. I can only assume that person got trains and trams mixed up.
You have a train that takes you directly to your house? O.o
Are you implying other countries don't have train stations? They just stop at each individual houses because it's a small country?
Also, the biggest city in the US is set up on a giant train system (Im referring to New York's subways).
No, obviously not. But they also don’t have stations in rural areas where there are houses with many, many miles between them.
That's nice. It's a small percentage of the population, and getting smaller. They can keep using cars if they want. We don't need to hold back all other progress on their account.
Cool, of course that has nothing to do with the original argument….
To be honest, I do see where you are coming from. If we had public transportation as good as our network of roads, people would have incentives to cluster up in the first place.
Shape defines function and function defines form. In this case that means the public transit would be built near the denser populations which will then cause people to move closer to the transport I on for ease of moving goods. It's why these other countries look the way they do, they didn't plan these out 3000 years in advance.
Other countries are no percent of the size of the US. The entire Indian subcontinent can fit on our eastern seaboard with room to spare.
The US is big, and has a lot of cities. We have an enormous amount of existing road infrastructure. We are not going to stop using all of that infrastructure any time soon - that's just reality.
You're acting like this change would be "just build trains lol" and that couldn't be more incorrect.
We built those highways over the last 70 years, with most of the work done in the first decade or two of that timespan. These decisions are not immutable laws of nature. They can be undone if we determine they are bad, and they pretty clearly are.
I have not seen a convincing argument that highways are bad. Do you have a link on that?
Global warming?
Global warming and highways aren't causally linked.
Too many too adequately cover here, but let's start with induced demand. You notice your highway is backed up constantly at rush hour. You figure adding a new lane will help, so you do, and it appears to help at first. What happens over the next year or so is that people who were taking other options now use the highway, and it fills up again. That leads to needing another lane, and at some point, you've invented the Katy Freeway.
Or how about that we're subsidizing the trucking industry with our taxes? The wear and tear on our roads goes up exponentially with weight--not by a square factor, not by a cube factor, but by the fourth power. There is no way that the additional amount trucks pay in taxes can be covering that. These trucks could be largely replaced by a better freight rail network (we already have a pretty good one, just needs to be better), which would be far more fuel efficient per ton of goods.
Or how about that highways encourage urban sprawl, which makes all other infrastructure more expensive. Have to run sewer and electricity to all those far flung neighborhoods. Your taxes are higher because of this. Not only that, but the neighborhoods that are subsidizing other neighborhoods might not be what you think (I linked to the pertinent point around the 5 minute mark, but the whole video is worth a watch on this subject) (and the whole channel, for that matter).
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
the neighborhoods that are subsidizing other neighborhoods might not be what you think
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You're not going to teach me to support density and mass transit, because I already do. Passionately. I am incredibly annoying to everyone I know because I beat them over the head with zoning reform rants and the paradox of more lanes.
That's not what we're discussing here.
There is no viable means of moving goods in this country without trucks. I've worked in logistics. There is no intermodal method that can possibly service all of the non-arterial areas of population with only last-mile trucking.
We'd have to forcibly relocate millions of people (as the Chinese did) in order to have this kind of conversion away from single vehicles.
You asked for "why highways are bad?" and I gave it to you. Now you're running over there acting like we were talking about something else.
Hey sorry man I edited and added a lot more. I thought of it right after posting. That's my b.
I appreciate your take and agree with these things, but I view this argument as our over-reliance (I would even say cultural addiction) to highways rather than their existence as a whole.
If we built trains we would start at the most densest areas. Most of these would move people (subways). This builds more railway tracks that could aslo send goods to rural arras as well.
The trains would do 2 things. One would most likely start clustering people together do to the ease of use of having more railways. Second, it creates more economic opprunties for the rural folks (like having a means to work in the city more or just having a way to sell goods) could cause enough economic success for buses.
I'm all about both jacking up density and expanding mass transport any way we can in urban areas. It's got to creep out from there though. We can't just wipe the slate clean and start over in a decade.
I'm constantly proselytizing to people locally to vote for and be interested in changing zoning and regulations policies. I'm super annoying about it if I'm drunk lol
I agree. The rural transit issues would be a much slower rollout. Would take a while to see any changes in those areas.
... you've never heard of bikes, or legs, or car sharing if you need to transport stuff? you don't need to own a car, it's unnecessarily expensive and bad for literally everything
the only reason one would need to own a car is if it's tied to their job
even if you disagree with this assessment, the technology in this post would almost certainly only be applied in cities, it would likely be restricted to a portion of where trains would be except be far less useful, while taking up tax money that could be used for actually important things
also the US has a higher percentage of the population in urban areas than Europe (82% vs 74%) – the US has a lot less small & isolated villages/towns and historically immigrants to the US always came to large urban areas – and US states are comparable in size, population, economy, and arguably self-governing capacity to European countries (the EU can practically be treated as a soveirgn state itself, in most cases), it's reasonable to say that something that can be implemented in Europe can usually be implemented in the US with a similar level of success, in theory.
This is a completely unrealistic scenario for the overwhelming majority of Americans
Trains have their bigger advantages on long distances. You get tired in a car, you can't go pp or take a nap. Your costs rises proportionally with the distance etc.
Trains famously bad at traveling long distances.
No, trains famously bad at “last mile” travel, except that in America it can be “last dozen miles” between a city big enough to have a station, and the place the person is going.
There are tons of areas of the US that have the population density to support it, but still have horrible train service. We made deliberate decisions to favor highways over trains, and we can undo those decisions.
Why would highways be less susceptible to the "spread out" effect than trains?
Nationwide, sure. But localized I wish we would do better, given the population densities. California has a population density of ~100 people/km2. Not far off France at ~120/km2. Yet we still are mainly reliant on cars to get around.
California and France aren't that far off from total area from each other. Most of California's population is in a hand full of counties. As an example, LA has a population density 3 times that of Paris.
There are places that would be wonderfully served by trains, but just aren't.
Cars are best in rural areas, but by far the majority of peoole live in cities where cars are the worst, yet we still build them for cars.
"Build them for cars" cities aren't built anymore. They were built a long time ago. Modifying existing cities for trains would be nearly impossible. Yes it's a 4:1 ratio of urban to rural areas. But remember the majority of the population lives in like 4-5 counties in the US. That's a lot of area that is empty.
It's a good point that cities aren't built anymore, and that's part of the problem. Our population has grown drastically, but we don't build hardly any new infrastructure for them outside of roads. So traffic is terrible despite enormous amounts of money from both government and people.
Cities aren't supposed to be static, they're supposed to grow and adapt to the needs of those that live there. There is a large need for non-car transport that is either ignored or sidelined for cars.
I'm not talking about 90% empty land, that's not where people are.
When the car was invented, governments had little issue buildozing entire neighborhoods for highways, but now that some places are realizing that's a bad decision, its really hard to undo.
A lot of the world had to rebuild after WW1and WW2 and that allowed for building around newer technologies. The US never had that. We're expanding and you can't just build in infrastructure like that.
The newer technology at that time was cars and roads, and many European countries did try the American system of roads and suburbs.
Its just that most of them realized it wad a bad idea around 20 years ago and started rethinking their cities.
Many city centers were even turned into parking lots like American ones.
Again cities arent supposed to be static, and normally they grow denser, rather than sprawling.
The problem with American cities is partly zoning, and partly nimbyism, where people don't want their places to change.
And sprawl sucks for pretty much everyone. Less arable land for farming, poorer anmeties, longer travel times, and finally huge transportation costs. Cars are by far the most costly method of travel, both personally and for governments.