this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2023
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https://nitter.net/codepink/status/1709591940675637312#m

https://www.codepink.org/arrested_11_activists_arrested_at_bernie_sanders_sit_in_for_peace

Solidarity to CodePink getting the message for diplomacy instead of endless money/arms heaping in the war as always. Can't habeeb Bernie went from resisting with his full body weight between two cops in his youth, to dolling out zip-ties like friendship bracelets. bern-disgust

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[–] runblack@reddthat.com 2 points 2 years ago (38 children)

And that belief is pacifism? That's of course a legitimate opinion to hold. But mine is different. The US has committed their fair share of atrocities over the decades. But I live in Germany. And if it weren't for the US involvment in WW2, I might be living in a fascist shithole today. So... is that comparable to the situation in Ukraine? Imo it is to a certain degree. Is war horrible? Of course, we should never fight them. But if someone wages war, ignoring all means of diplomacy because they think they'll profit from it, and your only option to end the war immediately is surrendering to maximalist demands.. with the expectation that this will again continue in some years with new demands... What you gonna do?

[–] GriffithDidNothingWrong@hexbear.net 40 points 2 years ago (12 children)

I assume you could agree that Americas invasion of Iraq was unjustified and illegal, yes? Now ask yourself if China had heralded Saddam Hussein as a heroic oppositional figure determined to fight to the last man and provided him with an endless supply of modern weaponry and more loans than his country could repay in generations, would you have supported it? Would it have altered the outcome aside from leading to millions more dead?

[–] runblack@reddthat.com 2 points 2 years ago (11 children)

I agree that the invasion of Iraq was illegal and unjustified just as the invasion of Ukraine was, and it set a terrible precedent. If China would've been in the position to credibly fend off the invasion at that time (before it even started!) that would've been a great thing. Now I would say the same about Ukraine but the West didn't take the threat seriously enough back then.

A difference in outcome is imo that Iraq was a dictatorship to start with. When I talk to Ukrainian refugees now living here they tell me that they want to preserve the political freedoms they gained after the Maidan revolution. They don't want to become a puppet state similar to Belarus and many of them are determined to fight for that. Ukraine surely is far from a perfect democracy and it has it's share of nazis as all societies have. But who am I to tell the Ukrainians to just let it be, accept their defeat and flee while they still can? But the war is a terrible meat grinder and it should ne stopped ASAP. I wish for honest negotiations and that might even include some tough to swallow compromises for the Ukrainian side. But what's more important is that there needs to be a new security architecture that prevents future wars and works for all sides. The Ukrainians have been let down by all sides in the past as neither country from the West, nor Russia, who all guaranteed Ukraines security in treatys have met their obligations.

[–] RollaD20@hexbear.net 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

love it when someone pulls out their "spoke to refugee" card as if it means anything by itself. I have also spoken with refugees including a man who barely managed to escape from Azov controlled Mariupol early in the war and had many choice words about the current regime and the far-right groups in the military. Curious how refugees with his perspective on Ukraine and the war is never elevated in the west, but we do find time to applaud an SS member on a Ukraine propaganda tour. shrug-outta-hecks

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