MeanwhileOnGrad
"Oh, this is calamity! Calamity! Oh no, he's on the floor!"
Welcome to MoG!
Meanwhile On Grad
Documenting hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse. Memes are welcome!
What is a Tankie?
Alternatively, a detailed blog post about Tankies.
(caution of biased source)
Basic Rules:
Sh.itjust.works Instance rules apply! If you are from other instances, please be mindful of the rules. — Basically, don't be a dick.
Hate-Speech — You should be familiar with this one already; practically all instances have the same rules on hate speech.
Apologia — (Using the Modern terminology for Apologia) No Defending, Denying, Justifying, Bolstering, or Differentiating authoritarian acts or endeavours, whether it be a Pro-CCP viewpoint, Stalinism, Islamic Terrorism or any variation of Tankie Ideology.
Revisionism — No downplaying or denying atrocities past and present. Calling Tankies shills, foreign/federal agents, or bots also falls under this rule. Extremists exist. They are real. Do not call them shills or fake users, as it handwaves their extremism.
Off-topic Discussion — Do not discuss unrelated topics to the point of derailing the thread. Stay focused on the direct content of the post, rather than engaging in arguments that lack mutual agreement.
Brigading/Trolling — If you're here because this community was linked in another thread, please refrain from maliciously voting, commenting, or manipulating the post in any way. This includes alt accounts. All votes are public, and if you are found to be brigading, you will be banned. Good-faith and honest communication is an exception.
Tankies can explain their views, but may be criticised or challenged for them. Any minor infraction of the rules may result in a warning and possibly a temporary ban.
You'll be warned if you're violating the instance and community rules. Continuing poor behaviour after being warned will result in a ban or removal of your comments. Bans typically last only 24 hours, but each subsequent infraction doubles the duration. Depending on the content, the ban time may be increased. You may request an unban at any time.
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Db0 sometimes attacks Tankies, although self-admittedly, he is soft on them. Other times, he even camps with them.
They've both told me that they prefer spending time with tankies instead of liberals, and consider liberals the bigger threat than tankies are. Which is curious considering the history of MLs and anarchists with how the MLs often betray anarchists. I believe their accusations of calling this community a nazi-bar stems from insecurity of their own spaces, where they regularly defend prominent tankies.
I've never seen unruffled attack them though.
Depending on how liberal is being used, i wouldn't disagree. Objectively for many they are the more active threat. But fuck camping with ML who fantasize similar things. The ML our fascistic Epstein class are eagerly cribbing notes from.
In the west and US specifically we've had our language actively manipulated and poisoned. By ghouls like but not limited to Frank Luntz. In the US most that would call themselves liberal would actually be socially liberal. Not acolytes of economic liberalism, which is what liberal historically and still currently to a large geographic area still means. Socially liberal people aren't an a problem, but also aren't liberals. Economic Liberals like Musk, Trump etc are an active threat to everyone. Themselves included.
Why do you lump the entirety of the West with the US when it comes to liberalism? The US is hardly a liberal country. For example, in my country, what's considered Liberal is considered conservative.
Liberalism outside the US is largely dominated by social liberalism, in which basic policies such as universal healthcare, a livable minimum wage, and a welfare state are taken as the baseline for governance. It's not left or right, it's standard. When people outside the US mention liberalism, they typically mean social liberalism, which the US severely lacks.
I believe most of the drama regarding liberalism v (insert here) stems from a US-defaultism perspective, which is wrong, since fuck the US. When I mention liberalism, I don't mean whatever backwards shit the US has going on.
I've only seen this confusion around liberalism come up in lemmy. I think it's due to tankie rhetoric poisoning the idea.
It's the other way around as explained extensively.
General definitions & the historical development of liberalism are academic & largely accepted worldwide.
Some of the earliest liberal practices are found in the US Declaration of Independence, which predates the French revolution spreading the practice of liberal ideals throughout Europe. The US declaration pretty much rehashes core tenets of liberal philosophy
Note how capitalism isn't mentioned anywhere: it's nonessential. Capitalism predates & isn't liberalism. Liberalism is moral & political philosophy, not an economic one.
The philosophy is a natural progression of humanist philosophies from the Renaissance through the Protestant Reformation & the Enlightenment that stress the importance of individuality, secular reasoning, & tolerance over dogma & subservience to unaccountable authority. To address unaccountable authority based on dogma & traditions, English & French philosophers defined legitimate authority based on humanist morality pretty much as expressed in the US declaration. They argued that political systems thrive better with limits & duties on authority & an adversarial system of institutional competition whether in separation of powers, adversarial law system with habeas corpus & right to jury trial, competitive elections, dialogue, or economic competition.
In time, goals shifted from addressing obstacles to individual freedom due to government to addressing obstacles due to the rest of society. Thus emerged the distinction between classical & modern liberalism:
As explained before, in the US, modern liberalism (which includes social liberalism & progressivism) is simply called liberalism whereas classical liberalism more closely corresponds to libertarianism.
I think US liberals & the rest of the world agree that modern liberalism ought to be standard.
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