I've seen alot of calls for violence in America. Whether it be directed at the president or Federal officers, many people are advocating for an escalation in response to the current situation.
And believe me, I do understand. what I see happening in America is horrifying. But all I am imploring is to really think about what your asking for. Because you can't put the genie in the bottle once you've left it out.
If you're really gung-ho about it, go and ask a Veteran of Iraq or Afghanistan about it and see what they think. If anyone will know about it they will.
I am going to link a YouTube Playlist. Its the Associated Press Archives of the Bosnian-Serbian war. Because THAT is what will happen if wide scale violence breaks out. Except what will happen in America will be a hundred times worse.
The Bosnian war was pretty much broken up along ethnic lines. "Well it's going to be Conservative VS. Liberal" you say. Except it won't be. It will be anyone having a grudge against someone going after them.
ALOT of personal animosity will be taken out in the first few weeks I feel.
And I think the Seige of Sarajavo will be writ large in American cities across the country. Imagine having to dodge sniper fire on your way to get to your job at Wendy's.
Because that's the other thing no one is thinking about. You are still going to have to make a living while this is all going to be happening. And the cost of everything will skyrocket. Shipping will probably have to be escorted from place to place because people will be stealing or even blockading locations because they're "damn dirty libs" or "Fascist Conservatives" Fresh produce will become a thing of the past.
Canada and Mexico will close their borders due to all the refugee's trying to cross. so if you thinking of doing it, do it the moment everything pops off because otherwise you won't get in.
Basically Civil war is going to the worst thing to happen in America in a long time. and the only good that comes out of it will be Americans will finally have first hand experience of real war torn violence. And maybe that will hopefully last for another two hundred years or so.
If America even survives the outcome that is.
I've called this out too, and somebody called my comment "gamerslop bullshit" just because I had one sentence that pointed out that real war isn't like call of duty.
The person who commented that didn't realize the irony that the "gamerslop bullshit" implicit in the warmongering/romanticization of violence is precisely what I was calling out.
People these days will accuse you of anything you criticize them for. Like, you pointed it out so clearly you're the one doing it. It's so illogical.
People in the US have been protected from the reality of war since the civil war in the 1860s. Even vets (a very small minority) of real wars get to come home at the end of it. The reality would be more like Vietnam or Syria were the war is your home and there is no escape. It is like the war against vaccines, people have forgotten the reality of life with those diseases and take the return of them very lightly.
Yeah, someone who's witnessed the devastation of war might say "You don't want that, you really don't understand what you're calling for" and someone who's never seen combat outside of video games and movies would say something like "You might be a coward, but I'm not."
Like, dude, until those first bullets fly over your head, you don't know how you're going to react. When you're getting shelled, and explosions are happening so close the shock wave alone can give you a concussion, when fighter jets and bombers fly overhead and all you can do is wonder whether you'll still be alive and intact five minutes from now, when communications and supply chains break down, food is scarce, clean water hard to come by, when the power grid goes down and you have to weather extreme temperatures in the summer and winter, when chaos reigns and you have to wonder every time you see a person whether they're gonna try to kill you, when you have to ration supplies so you don't run out, and have to avoid patrols of armored vehicles and evade detection 24/7 or risk getting bombed by drones, and when there's no end in sight but the slog goes on and on and on, night and day, without relenting, and you have to wonder how much longer you'll have to go on like this, how much longer you can go on like this, when every day when the sun rises you don't know if you'll be alive to see it set, and every night when the sun sets you don't know if you'll be alive to see it rise, if you've been through all that hell on earth and haven't shit your pants, and still think it's a worthwhile tradeoff to avoid having to vote for an imperfect candidate, then sure, maybe you have room to talk.
In real war, you can't power down when you're done playing. And if you have people you care about, then multiply hell by a thousand, because chances are you won't be able to keep in contact and you'll have to wonder every minute of every day whether they're having it any better or worse than you are, while you're utterly helpless to protect them because all you can do is fight to keep yourself alive another day.
Nobody is calling out for civil war. If it start it is because of Ice . People have the right to self defence when they got attacked by those thugs. The same eyewitness who say he didn't want a war would tell you that he do not regret fighting against oppression
Yeah, some people definitely are, especially on the internet.
Sure, people have a right to stand their ground. That right might not be recognized by the legal system, but some rights go beyond the ability of mortal men to give or take away.
That doesn't change the fact that if they outnumber you, then you might (if you're both skilled and lucky) take one out with you before the rest of them blast you.
If they're going to blast you anyway then you have nothing to lose, but for most people it seems like the best possible outcome would be to avoid escalating as much as possible.
Ice is like the gestspo though
And do you know what it took to stop the Gestapo?
I'll give you a hint, it was more than just a ragtag group of German rebels with guns refusing to comply.
There was people in germany who fought the gestapo, they didn't wait to be saved by the allies thst wouldn't helped them if Hitler didn't declare war on them
How did that turn out for them?
If they didn't resist the gestspo would have still kidnapping jews and send them to extermination camp .
They did that anyway. It took the allied forces closing in on two fronts to put a stop to it.
So your smart idea is to let the new gestspo kidnapp people, send them to torture camp like in salvador and wait for an external power to intervene?
No, my smart idea was to stop this all from happening on election day. Ever since that fell through, I'm all out of ideas.
Any "leftist" who boycotted the vote shares partial responsibility for the mess we're in. Kamala Harris wasn't perfect enough? Trump just gave Israel $3.3 billion for their military.
Anyone who would let a fascist take over because they couldn't vote for a liberal is a leftist in name only. So stop blaming the people who are saying "a revolution is not going to make things better."
So your smart idea is that people should do nothing to fix the errors of the past?
Is your smart idea to get your friends and neighbors bombed by the US military?
My idea is to people resist getting kidnapped, tortured and even killed. Maybe if your family ever become victims of ICE you will understand. I hope it never happen
Sure, if they're apprehended by ICE, by all means they can choose to resist. But if they're outnumbered it probably won't be effective, and will only increase the amount of brutality they're subjected to.
Plus, if there aren't any legitimate charges to book them with, fighting back gives agents the charge they need. Otherwise there's a higher chance of being released.
And if you don't fight back, then they might shoot you, as is evident by now. But if you do fight back, then they'll probably shoot you. So what degree of risk are you willing to accept? Cause it's a sliding scale, not a coin flip.
You are acting like ice and trump still care about the rule of law
Once they are deported like in salvador, it is the end of them thry will stay in the torture camps
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/white-house-bukele-visit-trump-1.7509466
It's not about whether trump or ice care about the rule of law, it's about whether the courts are capable or willing to intercede.
They're not going to be able to help if you punch an agent in the face, much as he might have deserved it.
The court will slowly become useless and all the democratic institutions. Falling into complete authoritarianism is a slow process and not an overnight chance that's why it is important to peacefully escalate expect when people has the right to forcefully defend themselves. That's why early resistance is important and by resistance I do not mean start shooting ice agents
Fortunately for him the victim was returned at the end but there are ton of peoole who doesn't have that chance and stuck in torture camps
I'm aware that the situation is bad. I haven't argued otherwise.
The argument in question is about methodologies, and for now I'm saying a violent resistance would be counterproductive.
I'm not claiming to know a viable alternative. But doing nothing is better than making things worse.
History shows the opposite the inaction is more costly than standing up against authoritarianism. It is going to become worse regardless if not stopped so better try and fail then fail and never try
It's impossible to verify that through any objective lens, as every situation is unique and there's no control group to compare it to. There's no way to isolate variables, and any alternate timeline is merely hypothetical.
The French Resistance played an important role in WWII, but for most of the early war they were hiding out and keeping a low profile so they wouldn't get steamrolled. Without Allied support, it wouldn't have been enough.
Today, technology has advanced to the point where it would be next to impossible to keep an organized resistance of comparable size undetected as long as they managed to.
Any appeal to history is inapplicable because the advancement of modern technology and the resulting imbalance of military might is such that it has no historical analog.
While limited violent confrotation by french resistance existed from the beginning. They was lucky that they have allied countries, they would still resist if help didn't come. Unlike french resistance no countries will save oppresed americans unless trump Trump start world war 3. That the risky cost of inaction
I think we're in agreement there, if I understand you correctly.
However, the conclusion I draw from that us that it's a riskier cost of a particular set of actions
Yes, some are. I have seen it a few times online, but people tend ti talk big on the internet. What really scared me was when I heard it in person.
I live in a pretty conservative area and I was at a bar the day after Charlie Kirk was assassinated and some woman said, and I quote, "The liberals don't realize that this means war. They're not ready, but I am. Send me to the frontlines!" Her friend asked, "You mean you want a civil war?" And she answered, "Yes. They fired the first shot. It's on now."
"They fired the first shot"
*Looks at Vance Boelter
I doubt an unhinged conservative even knows who that is.
Because it was glossed over in conservative and mainstream media. They acted all shocked about Charlie Kirk, but they had never even heard of Melissa Hortman. Even the ones who knew of the incident pretended it didn't exist.
They're not in touch with reality.
Elements of the Right have spent years calling for a civil war, what rock have you been living under?
Even worse would be the terror groups like in Syria and Vietnam where they come into a town after the enemy has left and slaughter anyone they think did or could collaborate. They would also take all the food they could leaving populations to starve.
And yet anarchists believe they hold the keys to a utopian future...
"Just read theory, you just don't understand. Humans will take care of each other, just trust me."
Well that's a strange segue.
I also seem to recall plenty of effective anarchist defense groups in the various civil wars.
Aren't there a bunch of anarchist communities in Syria right now?