Cross-posted from "The ultimate centrist" by @corgiwithalaptop@hexbear.net in !chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
These two things are the same 
this post was submitted on 14 Jan 2026
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The most common definition of a victim is someone who dies from a crime, and the word carries an underlying meaning of the harm coming from something not justified.
She wasn't killed because the police overreacted or because they are trained to shoot first, she was breaking through a barrier in pursuit of committing violence and had to be stopped. Previous non-lethal attempts to stop the violence were attempted, and she was part of a crowd that could overwhelm the security. Lethal violence was needed to defend lives and therefore she is not a victim.
This is not comparable to police overreacting with disproportionate violence.
I know I used the word crime above but I don't consider most laws morally legitimate so whether it was a crime or not is barely relevant.
I don't think it's wrong to describe someone who was killed by another person as a victim. Even if they were guilty of horrible crimes.
This is a conversation I've had several times. I think it's very strange that so many leftists claim to want to dismantle our justice system but endorse the same punitive logic behind it. Maybe it was necessary to kill Ashlee Babbitt, frankly, I don't know all the details. But she was killed by the police and that makes her a victim in my mind nonetheless. Killing someone is always a bad thing. Sometimes it's just the least bad thing you can do.
I think it is, personally, wrong to define someone who died as a result of their own actions as a victim. I think storming a building filled with armed individuals and expecting them to not use them on you places you firmly in the realm of 'not a victim'. That's like playing on a railroad, getting hit by a train, then blaming the train.
I would not define someone who commits suicide as a victim. I would describe everyone left behind as a victim, but not the person who kills themselves. * For example, we in the U.S. are victims of the Jan. 6th insurrection due to the downstream effects on our current politics. Disclaimer: I believe everyone should have the right to end their lives however they want.
Beyond that, I also think it's odd to use terms like 'good' and 'bad (evil)' when discussing things like this. Is it 'bad' to kill a serial rapist? Is it 'bad' to kill a child rapist? Am I a 'bad' guy for killing a 'bad' person?
Death is a natural consequence of life, we do not live forever. I think there are plenty of examples, naturally and fictionally, of why death is necessary.
Edit*: provided an example
Good to see some actual nuanced leftist takes even if they are being heavily downvoted.
Lemmings love the downvote button way too much for some reason so I try not to worry too much about it anymore.