Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
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The big difference is that while you can be banned from one instance, you can still use the rest of Lemmy.
You're free to say what you want, but individual instances can decide whether they want to platform you. I prefer this over reddit-wide bullshit bans.
But that's my point, you're not free to say whatever you want. Even holding a different opinion can draw the wrong attention in the worst ways. The people who dogpile, vilify, and twist your words see no consequences, and only you end up paying by being excluded from the bigger communities for sticking to your words. You will get banned, and your comments will be scrubbed from the modlog.
What you're saying only works if you're ok with dealing in smaller communities with less traffic, which is a major complaint seeing as how Lemmy is already a small social media site, or you're willing to shell out the money to spin up your own instance, which isn't viable for the people who would love to do that if only money wasn't a limitation.
What I'm saying is that regardless of how one cuts it, speech isn't free here. It's heavily punished and often enforced.
My point is this: SPEECH IS NEVER FREE. Not in the way you mean, i.e. without consequences. Find me one place in the entire world where you can say whatever you want without any consequences. I'll wait.
In your daily life you can also say what you want. People might get pissed at you, refuse to talk to you, break off friendships, get you fired from your job if you go too far, whatever. That's just life. What you say and do has consequences. Even online. Even at Lemmy.
Freedom of speech means your government won't arrest you and lock you up for your opinions, but any other consequences in your social circle, for example, are just that. When you're an asshole, people will think you're an asshole. Sounds normal to me. And if you're surrounded by assholes, they will act like assholes no matter what you say. If an instance has values so diametrically opposed to yours that they end up banning you, then good riddance, no? Edit: E.g. getting thrown out of a Nazi bar is no huge loss.
Sorry, I meant to say that speech isn't as free as people are saying in this thread. We have people essentially screaming "punch a nazi" as if it's a controversial opinion here, when there are other milder opinions that would create some serious outrage and get you banned on a whim.
I think it's universally understood that there are consequences to what you say, and even how you say it, and when. I think that's part of my point. I'm not here to argue for absolute free speech. I don't believe in that.
I'm merely pointing out that the Fediverse as a whole is a lot more policed than people say. It doesn't take much to create animosity.
I don't think that's how it works. You can very much agree with a community the overwhelming majority of the time while getting along fine, and still create some friction by touching specific topics. At least, that's been my experience in general everywhere, both online and IRL.
Oh absolutely. You can't agree with someone 100% of the time. Or well, you can, but it's rare. ;)
You're obviously right, there is no absolute free speech and there shouldn't be, imo. I see Lemmy a bit in the same way I see my real life. Everyone has rules in their own house and if you want to be invited in, you'll have to live by them. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but you can't expect them to keep inviting you - and you're welcome to go to another party where another group of people might not be invited.
Does this mean there are instances where I won't be welcome? Sure. But it also means there are instances where I won't be forced to see/read things I really don't want to see. I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but in my experience it's perfectly possible (with few exceptions) for me to say what I want, as long as I sometimes go about it with a little tact (but the fact that I don't want to be a huge asshole probably helps. ;))
Just because you are free to way whatever you want, doesn't mean, that anybody has to listen or agree with you. If people don't agree with your opinion and they let you know it, they are exercising their own freedom of speech.
And also, nobody owes you to platform your beliefs uncritically. Either you find a community, that wants to engage with you (and you talk to the other communities that wanna engage with your community) or you create your own community (and yeah, that could cost you a small amount of money and time). My point is, you can't just expect people to let you use the resources that they pay for to platform opinions that they find harmful enough to not wanna talk to you again. Saying that someone banning someone from their community is impeading on your free speech is just like complaining that someone didn't invite you to their party because you insulted them.
Disagreeing is one thing, and it's what we're doing, right? But there's a big difference when you're being dogpiled, vilified, harassed, insulted, and strawmanned all because people dislike what you said, even if it wasn't offensive or wrong. Then you get your comments removed and your account banned when you merely defend your point of view.
But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying quite the opposite, when even the point you're making is calling something into question. These mods aren't even paying for the hosting service.
Oh, come on, these are open forums where everyone is encouraged to participate at first, and you don't even have to be insulting to get on the wrong side of some people. I have been banned while being perfectly polite and following the rules.
Well, your entire argument is based on very vague anecdotal observations and you didn't mention any concrete examples, so arguing against your points feels kind of pointless.
What were the exact things you said on which communities, that got you "dogpiled"?
And please just be honest, you are not some kind of politian trying to win a debate by any means possible, I see this more as a conversation.
Sounds like you're just trying to wave me off.
Don't worry about it. Talking to you seems kind of pointless, too, seeing as you're not even a mod or an admin.
I'm sorry, what? Aren't we doing exactly that? How am I being a politician? I think you have the wrong idea about me and are trying to steer the conversation back on the track that it's already on for some reason. lol
Honestly, I'd rather not deal with these annoying mischaracterizations. I've said my peace, I think I'm done.
I'm also interested in the answer to this question.
Oh, I can answer that. I'm not here to revive the topics, as these things usually go with people trying to nitpick, but hopefully it'll appease someone's curiosity.
One time, I made a comment on blahaj zone about gay guys wearing too much makeup and wearing feminine clothes that seemed to be crossing the line into cross-dressing. It had literally happened to me a week prior when I went out with my non-binary friends to the gay bar I frequent, so it was fresh in my mind. They wore skirts, lip gloss, and handbags. It's literally nothing out of the ordinary for them, and I actually appreciate it. The comment was made in jest because, well, they are gender non-conforming and that falls under the trans umbrella after all. Well, I guess someone thought I was being a bigot who was assuming things about gender and made a fuss by misinterpreting what I said. They started demanding that I apologize for my comment as if it were a big deal, and people started replying with their version of events. I refused and tried to explain that it wasn't the case, but they still banned me after someone reported me. I complained that they were being outrageous and had some very unkind words for the admin, who took matters too far and who I thought was being unfair.
Another time, I criticized communism on lemmy.ml. Unfortunately, I didn't know how cozied up they were with hexbear, who crusaded out of nowhere and started dunking on me, even though I didn't think I had said something bad. I thought it was light criticism, and I even explained that I'm not even against it, but they had no tolerance for it whatsoever. The next day, I was under 40+ comments calling me all kinds of shit. A mod (admin?) came across it and banned my account on sight. They even included some bullshit in the modlogs to hide the real motive. This happened about 2.5 years ago, so I don't remember all the details, sorry.
And the most recent one was when I was pleading for people to avoid posting blown-up, zoomed-in pictures of common phobias like spiders without a spoiler or NSFW tag, out of consideration for people who have a lifelong struggle with these things that pop up in /all, explaining that many underestimate how much of an effect it can have. It's hard to explain what happens in the moment, but let's just say that the UIs become less than helpful in a panic when your entire screen is covered with your phobia. It causes more than a jump scare from prolonged exposure, and it's followed by nervousness and agitation that lasts for a good while, which can ruin a good morning. I was called all kinds of shit, berated, blamed, and humiliated. I ended up reporting someone who was breaking the site-wide and sub rules. And who gets banned? Me, with some bullshit in the modlogs about how I'm a "known troll." The mod did end up unbanning and apologizing for jumping the gun, but only after I called them out on it in a different thread.
All of these cases have things in common: the rules were selectively enforced, people either misattributed or overloaded what the other was saying, the comments were scrubbed, and the wrong person was targeted.