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The Bible
I skimmed it but all I ever saw was just a bunch of begat this and begat that with some quotations sprinkled in between.
And this fucking thing is partly responsible for why numerous things are going wrong with humans today and humans of history.
That's mostly the first chapter, genesis, the begat this stuff.
R crumb, the comics artist, has a fantastic graphic novel of Genesis where he communicates the emotions through his drawings of what the words are trying to communicate. This made genesis, the most boring and pedantic part of the Bible, more interesting.
The Bible has undoubtedly led to incalculable suffering as a cult, but just as a book, it's nowhere near the worst piece of literature I've ever read.
It's definitely not just the first chapter of Genesis. Like the entirety of First Chronicle is genealogy.
But then, don't discount the chapter where the twelve Jewish tribes send their gifts to Moses (iirc), and the full account of the lavish gifts is given, per each tribe. I've read through the whole thing to confirm the madness that the list is identical for each tribe, and is repeated twelve times.
I'd like someone in a US church choose that chapter for their Sunday reading of the Bible, and then see the faces of the congregation sitting through it.
Whoever wrote those books, didn't have much consideration for the reader.
I have a long-standing dream of someone just adapting the Bible to the screen exactly as it's written — at least the first parts up to and including Moses' wanderings. I have a feeling that a direct retelling would cause more than a few butts to be hurt.
Pasolini, an atheist and communist, came close in the approach with ‘The Gospel According to St. Matthew’, but the result is a rather romantic vision of the life of Jesus, perhaps dictated by both the chosen source material and Pasolini's ‘nostalgia for belief’.
Not in the USA, but I've heard some pretty interesting sermons on the topic. Generally about prophecies and how the ancient Israelites viewed certain numbers
As a former Christian and current socialist, it makes sense for socialists/communists to have a romantic view of the life of Jesus. It's the one part of my old beliefs that I can't let go of, since it shaped the values that I have now. The values that Jesus preached are often the same values that lead people to socialism/communism.
Sizable chunks of the Old Testament were documentation, rather than formatted with the intent of being engaging. It's like how a family bible often has genealogy hand-written inside it, except it's the contents of the book itself.
A direct retelling wouldn't be allowed to air. Murdering your wife in Christ's name for not cooking you dinner, divinely owning slaves as an entitled Christian, lobster sending you to christian hell; the production wouldn't get very far.
What are you on about?
Whats that?
When did someone murder their wife in Christ's name for not cooking you dinner
Love that you're like "we all know shrimp sends you to christian hell, but wife discipline? Seems farfetched!"
Corinthians, ephesians, most books of the Bible reiterate that women must submit to their husbands:
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands."
And to not submit to their husbands is to go against God.
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."
And guess what happens if your husband asks you for dinner and you say no?
“So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.”
Eve’s decision to prioritize her own desires over God’s instructions led to disastrous consequence including physical death and eternal obeisance.
"Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."
"Genesis 2:18-24 “And the lord god said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him"
Christian women are servants to men, and if they defy men, they defy god. Through all of every version of the bible, the Christian punishment for defiance is death.
Why?
"For the wages of sin is death".
Before I address your insane cherry-picking, where did you get the whole "murder your wife in the name of christ for not cooking dinner" from.
your bible is a cherry tree.
I was worried there were too many quotes for you and removed a few, but I'll simplify it further:
Women must obey every desire of their husband, according to the word of god(cooking dinner, for example). Disobeying the word of god is punishable by death.
1, 2.
No, it's not. In fact, verse numbers weren't a thing until a few centuries ago.
I would say that you have done one of the worst jobs of biblical interpretation I have ever seen, but if you, for whatever reason, think that it's just a random assortment of verses, then it's understandable why your take was so bad. So I'll pose and answer two questions.
Who carries out the punishment of death?
What is God's instruction to the husband?
These are questions which are only answerable if you don't use the Bible like it's a cherry tree.
The punishment of death is carried out by God. Who are sinners? The same writing that says "the punishment for sin is death" says "all have sinned". What that means is the reason we die is BECAUSE of sin, so God punishes us with death.
If you kept reading on in what you originally quoted, you would have seen a much greater burden put on the Husband.
Ephesians 5:25
Christ is God. So husbands must somehow try and love their wives with perfect love. This is the same God who keeps forgiving even the worst sins, and died in a horrific manner in order to save them. So husbands are expected to die for their wives. And taking the bullet is the easy bit- you may need to die to your own desires or preferences in order to show love to your wife. Maybe you were saving some money to go to a sports game with your mates, but your wife really wants a nice date. To die to yourself would be to use that money to go on a nice date with your wife.
god's answers:
"who carries out the punishment?" christ and/or Christians
"What is god's instruction to the husband?" To be the master
next two instead of 3 and 4:
1 again. "Who are sinners?" Those who defy jesus.
2 again. "...if you kept reading...much greater burden on the husband..." i've read the bible in full, there is no "greater burden" put on the master.
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart"
Sounds reeeal tough for the slave owners, having all that respect and sincerity from their slaves...no, it is not more difficult for a man to go on a date with his wife than it is for a wife to be eternally damned for not cooking her husband dinner.
The eternal damnation is a greater burden.
John 8:1-11, Jesus clearly states that it's not our place to carry out a death penalty.
And Jesus Christ is our Master. He is the perfect Master. So husbands should use Christ as their role model.
The other 1 and 2,
1: Yes, anyone who defies God is a sinner.
2: The aforementioned master literally was rejected, tortured and died for mankind.
Slaves obeying their masters is a show of humility, same as "turn the other cheek".
A husband would be eternally damned for that date by your logic. You have an issue with the eternal damnation, yet the Master - Christ - absorbed that punishment for us so we wouldn't have to bear it. You're speaking as if a wife suddenly loses her salvation and becomes unforgivable by God because she failed to cook dinner.
and still christians have always and continue to carry out the death penalty.
a. jesus is an imperfect master: his flock is full of pedophiles, murderers and rapists.
b. being a perfect slave master is not good for the slaves. You may aspire to owning slaves, but that doesn't make owning slaves admirable or righteous.
2 again: "...died for mankind."
jesus was here a few years and then lives in paradise forever in your book. his suffering was brief and insignificant relative to eternal life.
Important to note that all the evidence we have supports the christian bible being a fictional story, largely made up and revised over the years to create a myth to subjugate people like yourself. It's an interesting piece of creative writing, but there are limits to how far you should base your real life on a book about owning slaves and worshiping fear that inspired one of the largest and most harmful cults in history.
That doesn't mean that they're supposed to and you cannot define an ideology by how it's adherents act.
Basically any institution involving humans, this is the case. That's because humans are corrupt and sinful. God punishes evil.
I know. Slave owning isn't righteous. Are you accusing me personally aspiring to own slaves?
And because of Him dying, it can be similar for us. We suffer a while and then have eternal life. Congratulations, You've figured it out.
No there isn't. And who's subjugating me exactly? My prime minister is an atheist. Rejecting the Bible has always been a first step in subjugation in recent history.
It's not about owning slaves or worshipping fear, and Christianity has been a net benefit for humanity.
"...cannot define an ideology by how it’s adherents act"
An ideology is, in practice, defined by its adherents.
"...humans are corrupt and wild..."
correct, jesus is not a perfect master
"are you accusing me..."
I wasn't, but you do admire masters and worship a book glorifying slavery.
"Slave owning isn't righteous"
Owning slaves is righteous according to the christian bible.
Time to scrutinize your values.
the christian bible is all about fearing retribution for your actions instead of making moral choices and positively affecting the world through good will and critical thinking.
it is christian to own slaves and to be a master to your slaves according to the christian bible, what you see as the word of the christian god. you are defying the christian god by claiming owning slaves is not righteous.
"It's not about owning slaves or worshipping fear"
By its own text, the christian bible is a book about worshiping fear and glorifying slavery.
but that's okay because it's just a book, one of millions, and there's a much bigger, and real, world out there with better lessons you can learn from.
Jesus is a perfect master. He is patient.
No, it isn't. Nobody seriously considers North Korea to be a proper example of "socialism".
Not, we don't.
No, it isn't.
No, it's not.
Except it's clear you aren't saved by works. Peculiar that. And it is about moral choices, you cannot have morality without a religion. You can act morally, yes. You can be moral, yes. But you cannot have it.
Not really. At the end of the world, none of these silly human materialist ideas will matter.
Your arguments are so bad, you claim to have read the Bible, what drugs were you on? I'm almost convinced you graduated from the University of Reddit or something.
"jesus is a perfect master. he is patient."
Patient is not perfect. A perfect master teaches and controls his disciples perfectly. jesus does not teach and control his disciples. His disciples hurt and kill people, they hoard wealth.
jesus is a bad master.
"No, it isnt"
Adherents of a philosophy, in practice(in practical application, or the "real world"), define how that philosophy interacts with the world.
Think of all the different christian sects defining and defending different perspectives of the same words, harming and killing others over their own confusion and fear.
"christians" define christianity and how christianity exists in the world.
"Not, we don't"
The christian bible glorifies slavery as righteous. You worship that book.
"No, it isnt"
Slavery according to the christian bible:
"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect"
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them,"
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything"
The Bible glorifies slavery as righteous and christian.
According to the christian bible, It is christian to own slaves and for those slaves to be willing slaves to their masters.
But it's one silly book among millions, you don't have to worship selfishness, misogyny and slavery if you choose not to.
He does exactly that- teach and control them.
On hoarding wealth:
Matthew 19:16-22
Luke 12:16-21
On violence:
Luke 22:50-51
Matthew 5:38-42
No, those self proclaimed followers who hoard wealth, hurt, and kill, are bad disciples.
Christian denominations don't hurt or kill each other. The vast majority of denominations coexist, and many participate in ecumenism. There is a general agreement between Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Protestants that we all are Christians and follow the same faith. We just practice it differently.
That was about humility and submission to authority, with the hope that by your humility and submission you'd be a Christian witness to your master. Jesus didn't preach violence- He preached turning the other cheek, and this is consistent with that. As was said, you may suffer for a while, but in the end you'll be free eternally. All of the slaves from when that was written have been freed.
None of what you cited encourages taking slaves.
No, it's not.
The Bible doesn't preach these things, and we don't worship these things. We worship the God who became man, lived a humble life, preached humility and died so we can spend eternity free. The Bible is more about humility, it's your own selfishness which is clouding it.
And if a religion is defined by how it's people behave, we sing the hymn "Amazing Grace" which was written by an ex slave trader. In the hymn he refers to his past life before coming to the Faith as a "wretch" and "I once was lost"
John Newton, 1778
I doubt you've actually read the Bible - Jesus' constant teaching of humility, false prophets, etc are quite clear. You are just recycling old washed out anti-theist talking points. This Advent, I challenge you to read Matthew's Gospel. You might be surprised. You can even listen to it in the background, it's just two and a half hours long.
2:09 if you want to skip the genealogy
"he does exactly that- teach and control them."
So your belief is that jesus teaches christians to rape children and murder people. Weird take, but it does sound christian.
If you pretend jesus preaches pedophilia, violence and greed – I guess he does promote incest when lot fucks his daughters - then he is a pretty bad master, since some christians have sex with their own children and murder people but some don’t.
jesus has no control over Christians.
On hoarding wealth:
Many self-professed Christians hoard wealth, defying their book rule that "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus, terrible teacher since all his greedy disciples are hoarding wealth in direct defiance of him. He has no control over his disciples.
“the bible doesn’t teach these things”
Quotes provided above praise the selfishness of men, misogyny and dominion over women, and the christian righteousness of slavery.
When you worship that book or its writers, you are worshiping incest, selfishness, misogyny and slavery, among other "sins".
“we sing amazing grace”
does not help all the kids christians raped, hospitals bombed or the people dying every hour from hoarded christian wealth.
This is the difference between the real world, where christians regularly harm people, and a novel like the bible, which you are pretending does not include its own direct quotes about slavery. Which is crazy, because the bible praises and promotes slavery and slave owners a LOT.
“I doubt you’ve read the bible.”
doubt away thomas. you seem very unfamiliar with the christian bible.
or you're pretending the christian bible doesn’t promote incest, slavery, misogyny and selfishness despite direct biblical quotes.
I’m quoting relevant, accurate passages and dealing with the text honestly, you either haven't read the christian bible or are pretending you haven’t read it because you are aware how embarrassing and immoral it is to worship slavery and incest.
To be fair, It is very christian of you to hide from the reality and consequences of your professed faith and ignore the actual text.
Lot was raped by his daughters. Are we victim blaming now?
You kind of remind me when 'the right' undermines the trans rights movement because a handful of mass shooters or sex offenders were transgender people.
Ohhhh, ohhh, you think?
Matthew 7:21-23
Would be a bit of a shame if you thought you would be separated from them, just to be thrown in the same pit with them.
All the rest of that nonsense you are claiming about slavery have already debunked. You're not rebutting my argument, just repeating the same claims I addressed mindlessly. If you really want me to demonstrate more that the Bible doesn't promote these things, I will.
"Are we victim blaming now?"
If you are, you should stop. Christians victim-blame too regularly.
good for you to acknowledge lot's christian misogyny! Lot begs a mob to rape his daughters to save his guests. Very christian(misogynist) and disgusting.
Lot drank some wine. You believe he was so drunk he didn't realize his own daughters were having sex with him to completion for 48 hours? Ludicrous.
"Ohhhh, ohhh, you think?...did we not prophesy..."
Fiction and speculation is useless here. You have the relevant christian biblical quotes above detailing christian slavery, christian misogyny, and christian greed, and we know that in real life christians are pedophiles, rapists and murderers.
Either jesus is teaching pedophilia and murder to christians, or christians are raping chlidren and murdering people because jesus cannot control his flock.
either way, jesus is a terrible "master".
"...I addressed mindlessly"
try addressing the quotes mindfully.
Jesus endorses misogyny, slavery and incest in "his" book, and so does anyone who worships his words.
"If you really want me to demonstrate more that the bible doesn't promote these things..."
This thread is simply a guide on how to debunk christian self-delusions.
I heartily encourage you to try again.
HE LIVED FOR 942 ~~DAYS~~ YEARS AND THEN HE DIED.
Edit how incredibly stupid I am saying "days".
Honestly it’s probably just a poor translation/carry-down from what would now be understood as “months”. That makes it 72 years which is entirely reasonable.
what's wild to me is the people who swear by it as the answer to all lifes questions and yet...they've never read it.
if i thought and all knowing all powerful being put answers to all lifes questions into a book i'd be reading the shit out of it
When I was around 20 and looking for purpose in life, I actually really tried to get into Christianity.
I mean, they seemed to have a light guiding them through life, something that takes away the feeling of senselessness and chaos in the world. I especially loved the idea that "you can never fall deeper than into god's hand".
So I prayed to god to show me the way to him, went to the local church every Sunday, and started reading the bible.
All of it. Cause I obviously wanted to know what I was supposed to believe in. And it completely killed my desire to become a Christian.
The only way to make sense of it, for me, was to interprete the old testament as a collection of the stories that goat herders told each other to make sense of world history, followed by a heavily propagandized history of the Israelite people, legitimizing their claim to Israel after displacing and genociding the people who had lived there before.
The new testament is the story of a wandering preacher who tried to establish an early version of peaceful communism.
But when that became too popular, the Roman state embraced and co-opted the message and turned it into the basis of a hierarchical state church, which later turned into Christianity as we know it today.
Since I read God's book while praying to God and that was the interpretation I was left with, I have to assume, it's the one God agrees with ;)
No no no no. It’s the gays that are responsible. THE GAYS!!!!
If you can get hold if it, look out for Thomas Jefferson's The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. It's the New Testament with all the spirituality, supernatural, etc edited out. Instead you've just got a book about morals and ethics as taught by some guy.
I assume he also edited out the slavery bits 🙄
"but Jesus never actually talked about slaves
Yeah, and that's a major fucking problem