this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2025
1459 points (97.8% liked)

Science Memes

19777 readers
2696 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] pebbles@sh.itjust.works 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (12 children)

I see what you're saying. Something like "there are two sets of characteristics and most folks grab from the majority of one or the other. Therefore we can place everyone into one sex or the other."

I feel like when I first read your comments I took issue with how black and white your words seemed. I still kinda feel that.

Is there some structure that's presense or lack there of definitely defines sex for every person? If so I think its fair to call sex a binary.

I feel like I'd only be convinced if I could understand what makes the options only 0 or 1 yk? It doesn't seem to be chromosomes, which is what I was taught growing up. X/Y Chromosomes have more that two ways of existing in humans.

I'll read through those wiki articles a bit. To me it seems like your saying that there is some kind of structure that has no middle ground in humans. It always only goes one way or the other. No variation. It's hard for me to picture life doing that. If ya have any more info to point to I'd be down to look at it.

Edit: for example, would Ovotesticular Syndrome be a counter example to sex binary?

Edit: it looks like there is some variation in rare cases with the development of Müllerian ducts. So that doesn't seem to be a binary.

[–] powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works -3 points 4 months ago (6 children)

The structures that unambiguously always define male or female are the structures that produce functional gametes. I interpreted "how folks that were never going to produce either fit into that definition" as asking "If we don't look at the gonads, what would we use to determine sex". Those ducts are a very good indicator, but are secondary structures around the gonads. If you wanted to determine sex without looking at gonads, those are one of the primary structures for doing so.

Ovotestes are interesting, but probably not what you're thinking. They're not just normal testes and ovaries as one might be lead to believe from the name. They're exceedingly rare, so have to be examined individually and general statements can't really be made. You'll probably find a (semi-)functional gonad from which their sex would be determined, with a sampling of non-functioning tissue from the other sex. You'll also likely find that the surrounding structures and rest of their body is unambiguously male or female, though again you'd have to look at a specific case.

To bring it around to near the start of this thread, even then, the body isn't organized around producing no gametes. It's organized around producing gametes and failing to do so.

[–] pebbles@sh.itjust.works -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

the body isn't organized around producing no gametes.

After looking some case reports it looks like a lot of folks with ovesterticular disorder have both sets of genetalia and neither can produce gametes. These folks tend to choose a gender (usually the one they grew up as pre-puberty) and get hormone therapy and such to affirm it.

Since "sex is a binary" is a universal claim, it only takes one existential example to disprove it. I was pretty convinced by the case reports I read that the sex binary can't include every person.

I'd be convinced if ya presented a definition that could be used on everyone.

But at this point I think we are splitting hairs. It seems obvious to me that there is a range of ways sex can exist in humans. At this point a definition for the binary would have to be pretty complex and people close to the boundary would likely be very similar despite getting opposite labels. It'd be like saying there is a binary of black and white and the line is at R127,G127,B127. I mean sure, but we both know we are just drawing a line in a spectrum.

[–] FoxyFerengi@startrek.website 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] powerstruggle@sh.itjust.works -3 points 4 months ago

Those are variations within a sex. Chromosomes/genes/etc aren't how sex is defined. The paper that I link to in my sibling comment (Why There Are Exactly Two Sexes) explains why trying to use that as the definition of sex is incoherent.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)